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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 7:18:21 GMT -7
Please Man. Don't be so defiant ok?
You claim Mike can't know people's intentions and read minds, but you yourself are pretty much convinced of what were my intentions. How do you know that? Can you read minds?
Since no one her can read minds I'm telling you with absolute sincerity that i wasn't trying to fix you. I was just offering my advice, taken from my own experience and what I learned about lust. You can either take my advice or refuse it. That's up to you, but everything I said was to share my knowledge of how to achieve peace love and joy. Even if i were to be wrong with my advice (and i think I'm not), that was still my intention: to answer the doubts you expressed in your post as well as i could.
The Lord bless you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 8:30:05 GMT -7
Hi Uroy91
I comment inbetween:
You:
"Please Man. Don't be so defiant ok?"
I:
Can you be specific; what do I do that make you think I am deifiant? I think that's a false accusation because I confronted you with meeting me in a bad way. You can't handle a feedback so you go to personal attack on me instead of keeping to the subject.
You:
"You claim Mike can't know people's intentions and read minds, but you yourself are pretty much convinced of what were my intentions. How do you know that? Can you read minds?"
I:
If you don't tell your intentions, then I am free to guess of course.
You:
"Since no one her can read minds I'm telling you with absolute sincerity that i wasn't trying to fix you. I was just offering my advice, taken from my own experience and what I learned about lust. You can either take my advice or refuse it. That's up to you, but everything I said was to share my knowledge of how to achieve peace love and joy. Even if i were to be wrong with my advice (and i think I'm not), that was still my intention: to answer the doubts you expressed in your post as well as i could.
The Lord bless you."
I:
Ok, it's okay to try and fail; you didn't succeed in your attempt to meet me; I think you didn't meet me good; if you want, I can give you feedback on how you could do it better.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 8:46:07 GMT -7
Yes, I'm sorry I will be more specific.
By defiant I mean, you immediatly assumed I was trying to boss you around. Then I already wrote a message when i clarified my intentions to you, I even apologized to you for not being clear enough, but you still didn't trust Mike's word, that was backed up by my second message.
In my first message I didn't clarify my intentions, and I already apologized for that in my previous message. I just assumed that if a person comes to this forum, he or she seeks support and advice from other members. I saw you were struggling with doubts. I offered my advice. I had no way of knowing you'd take it the wrong way.
Our first meeting was obviously a misunderstanding. I do want to help you, and I'm open to feedback on how to meet your expectations. However i ask you to accept my advice from before.
your brother in Christ,
Al
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 8:57:24 GMT -7
Hi
To Mike:
I comment inbetween your post: You: "Uroy wasn't trying to fix you. I didn't see any of that." I: How do you know his intentions? Are you God? So if you can't see anything, then there isn't anything? You:
"They asked: > You can see wheter your dancing is acting out or not by answering one question: are you doing it more for the fun of dancing? For passion? Or is it a way for you to replace porn; a sort of sexual gratification?
This was meant to help you take a look at what you're doing. I would be interested in hearing your response to this question, which you dodged." I: Again: how do you know his intentions, that it was meant to help? Those questions that you quote are bad; they want me to take God's place and search inside myself and see and understand my inner motives and so on; I can't do that; I don't have all that Insight; no human has that. The only one that can answer such questions is the One that sees and understands everything, not me, no humans; those questions are not helpful; they try to force me into the position of someone who sees and understands everything; I don't have that position, and no humans have that position; the questions are bad and you accuse me for not going into them; you should rather credit me for not taking the place of the One who knows everything, but instead my own place, just a created human being that doesn't know everything and say I can't answer it.
You:
"You didn't need to jump down Uroy's throat about "giving advice" when a part of what these forums about are to help each other by (politely) helping the others see their blind spots. Lust puts a man in a fog of emotional and spiritual blindness and part of the recovery process is seeing where we have justified or played with lust." I: I was helping Uroy to see his blind spots, and I am helping you to see your blind spots, but maybe I could do it in a better way. How? The point is; we can not know anything about another persons inner life, only outer life, so the only thing we should comment on and the areas we should try to help each other to see blind spots on are the outward actions, and when we do that we should be specific on what we observe; Uroy didn't do that; he was talking about my motives that either him nor I can know anything about. So his comments/ feedback was useless, and I give him feedback about it; I give him feedback about his blindspots?, his stupid actions, and both you and him attack me personally because you don't like to get feedback on your blind spots?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 9:49:59 GMT -7
With all respect, but I think you got some things wrong.
It's not true we cannot know at all about another person's inner life. We are all humans, we have very similar experiences, and while they may differ, the principles on which lust works are the same for everyone. Then you say we should only comment on what we can see. That which appears on the outside is caused by the inside. All sin starts in the heart, so I think it's important for someone who wants to help, to understand your feelings, your motives, to be able to offer insightful advice. Pardon me, but who else can know about his/her motives than the subject itself? Trough a deep introspection you should learn well enough what your motives for doing something are. In my first comment I said that depending on your motives dancing could or could be not acting out. I can't tell if your outward act of dancing is sinful or not if I don't learn from you what pushes you to do that. And that's what I was asking you to consider. Also, from what I have learned on myself, avoiding acting out is not everything, one also needs a strong relationship with God first, otherwise there's a big risk of a relapse.
Who attacked you personally? Nobody offended you from what I can read. Pointing out you could use a bit more politeness in your comments is not attacking. On the other hand you go around insulting other people's attempts to help by calling such attempts stupid and their insights useless. Keep in mind that's only your opinion. Maybe you're the one who's not willing to think things trough and dismissess everything he reads by labeling it as useless?
God bless you
Al
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 9:50:17 GMT -7
Hi Uroy91: I comment inbetween: You: "Yes, I'm sorry I will be more specific." I: - You:
"By defiant I mean, you immediatly assumed I was trying to boss you around." I: How do you know what I assumed? You: "Then I already wrote a message when i clarified my intentions to you, I even apologized to you for not being clear enough, but you still didn't trust Mike's word, that was backed up by my second message." I: Actually, an intention doesn't mean anything; it's what actually happens that counts, but an intention can be good for a dialogue; if you want to act good, and you don't manage as is the case for you, then you need help; you need to change something in your thinking, actions and so on; you need to listen to feedback. It is not so that if someone has a good intention, then it is good; for example if someone kills somebody and says that his intentions was good, it doesn't automatically mean that everything is fine? You:
"In my first message I didn't clarify my intentions, and I already apologized for that in my previous message. I just assumed that if a person comes to this forum, he or she seeks support and advice from other members." I: You should meet the other person better; you should check out what the other person wants and needs, not just start to fix and give advices. If you just start to fix and give advices it can be a boundary-violation. That can be ugly. You: "I saw you were struggling with doubts." I: How did you see that? What kind of doubts? You: "I offered my advice. I had no way of knowing you'd take it the wrong way." I: How do you know that I took it the wrong way?
The rules are so: when we try to meet someone, those who meet are 100 % responsible to meet the other person perfect; if you don't do that, then you make a mistake, and you should say sorry. With this rule, everybody makes mistakes including myself; we are all guilty. You:
"Our first meeting was obviously a misunderstanding." I: A misunderstanding? Can you see my mind so you know what I have understood and what I have not understood? Or do you talk about yourself? What did you not understand? You: "I do want to help you, and I'm open to feedback on how to meet your expectations." I: If you want to help someone, your attitude should be: How can I help you? How can I be your servant? How can I be your friend? What can I do for you? not just tramping into someones life and start to "help", that can be disrespectful, breaking boundaries and so on.. You: "However i ask you to accept my advice from before." I: What do I achieve when I accept those advices from before from you? Your attitude should not be: "Do this!", but "How can I help you?", "How can I serve you?" "Where do you want?" and such things. I want peace, love and joy in my life; how can your advices from before bring me that? If it can't I don't want your advices, but I put you responsible for stupid advices, and you should say sorry for your stupid behaviour.
You:
"your brother in Christ,
Al" I: Seems to me satan is more your father than Christ when I see how you behave. Best regards
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 9:59:42 GMT -7
Hi Mike, you should say sorry for the stupid way you have treated me in here.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 10:34:29 GMT -7
How do I behave? did you see any sin in my behavior? Did I break even one of the commandments in offering my advice to you? Did I not honor God above all else? Did I make myself idols? Did I call God's name in vain? Did I disregard the holy day of rest, or try teach you to do so? Did I dishonor my parents? Did I murder or call you names? Did I commit adultery or encourage that behavior in you? Did I steal something from you? Did I lie? Or can you demonstrate that what I said doesen't correspond to truth? Did i desire something that's lawfully yours?
If I didn't break any of the commandments how can you say satan is my father more than Christ? What basis do you have to make such a big accusation? Let the other members be our jury. And utimately let God be our judge.
I offered you help. Didn't mean you harm. And about what you said earlier, someone who kills with "good intentions" does so knowing he's sinning, therefore he's guilty. I'm not breaking any commandment by offering my help to you with the best intentions, therefore you can't accuse me.
Anyways, for the last time I'll answer point by point...but then I won't write anymore.
1. I observed your words, which expressed very well what you assumed.
2. I didn't come up with my advice from nothing. i read your post, where you expressed your doubts and worries. A normal and godly reaction is for a fellow human to offer advice and help. What you wanted and needed seemed pretty obvious from that first post of yours.
3. "I think those needs must be met, but that should be in a way that is okay. I am not sure how this can be." " I am not sure if that dancing in itself is acting out" "I am not sure if that dancing in itself is acting out" "But if dancing also is acting out, then I don't know how I can live without acting out"
These doubts and worries. "I'm not sure" "I don't know" usually express doubt and worry.
4. I don't see where you take this rule from. I'd rather say he who meets has the responsability to do so as well as he can, since there's not knowing how to meet someone perfectly at 100%. And I know you took it the wrong way because I know what my intentions were. In any case I apologized, and more than once.
5. You misunderstood my intentions. We already talked about that so let's not repeat it.
6. In your first post you already kind of clarified what your doubts were, and what you were unsure of. A person that posts to this forum does so to share and take advice from others. Kevin and Nikanor did so for me and I didn't get offended at them. If you felt in any way disturbed by the way I offered advice, i apologize again, for I did not realize it was such a delicate matter to you.
7. I don't have a reason to apologize for my willingness to help someone.
Those things being said:
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."
I'm done discussing with you anyway. It seems you don't want any help, so I'll just leave you be. Maybe the others will be more helpful.
Blessings,
Al
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 11:02:43 GMT -7
Hi Uroy91:
I comment inbetween:
You:
"With all respect, but I think you got some things wrong.
It's not true we cannot know at all about another person's inner life. We are all humans, we have very similar experiences, and while they may differ, the principles on which lust works are the same for everyone."
I:
Yes, the principles on which lust works are similar for everybody (moral laws), but we can not know anything about other peoples inner life, and we should not care about it. We don't know it.
Seems to me we have different rules for what is okay social behaviour. Then it is difficult to socialize, because then one will say that one type of behaviour is okay and the other will say it is not okay; we just have different rules for what is okay social behaviour.
You:
"Then you say we should only comment on what we can see. That which appears on the outside is caused by the inside. All sin starts in the heart, so I think it's important for someone who wants to help, to understand your feelings, your motives, to be able to offer insightful advice."
I:
Here is another rule that we might disagree about, and that makes it difficult to socialize; no human being can change another human beings inner life; the only one that can change it is the Higher Power, but only if the person accepts it. The only thing we should focus on/ point on are outward things or things that we know something about. We might know a little bit about how morals laws work, like we can know how physical laws work, but we don't know anything about other peoples thoughts and feelings because we can't see them.
You:
"Pardon me, but who else can know about his/her motives than the subject itself? Trough a deep introspection you should learn well enough what your motives for doing something are. In my first comment I said that depending on your motives dancing could or could be not acting out. I can't tell if your outward act of dancing is sinful or not if I don't learn from you what pushes you to do that. And that's what I was asking you to consider. Also, from what I have learned on myself, avoiding acting out is not everything, one also needs a strong relationship with God first, otherwise there's a big risk of a relapse."
I:
As I wrote, we don't know our own motives; the only One who eventually knows that is the One that knows everything; so you ask me to take the role of the One who knows everything; that's a bad advice. No humans should take that place. You should say sorry for that advice of course.
It's a very stupid advice to try to look at my motives; I don't know everything, so you try to make me play God; you should say sorry for that.
You also talk about a "strong relationship with God". Nobody can see your relationship with God; the only thing we can see is the eventually result of that; that is peace, love, joy and such things and the way we treat each other and so on; when I see the way you treat me, I would guess that your relationship with God is weak, and that your father is not God, but satan.
You:
"Who attacked you personally? Nobody offended you from what I can read. Pointing out you could use a bit more politeness in your comments is not attacking."
I:
If you are specific in your feedback on how I was wrong, inpolite and so on, it is of course not wrong, but actually very good; then it is very helpful; it can some blindspots at me, so come on; be specific. Then it is about helping with blindspots, and that is good.
You:
"On the other hand you go around insulting other people's attempts to help by calling such attempts stupid and their insights useless."
I:
Maybe we have different rules for what is okay and what is not okay attitude/ behaviour. If you try to help and you don't succceed in your attempt to help, then it is love to give feedback on your mistakes/ blindspots; you think you do something right, but when you don't do it, and you get feedback about it, you get a possibility to change, and to give other People that possibility/ feedback, that is love; it's about informing about blindspots about outer things. that might other see, but that one might not see oneself. When it comes to inner things we should not give each other feedback because we can not see it; the only thing we can talk about when it is about inner things are general moral laws or if someone share about it. Then it might be okay to give feedback about how to handle it.
You:
"Keep in mind that's only your opinion. Maybe you're the one who's not willing to think things trough and dismissess everything he reads by labeling it as useless?
God bless you"
I:
Now you are talking about my inner life; that is something you can not see, so you can not know anything about it; what do you want to achieve with talking about it? For example willingness; how can you know anything about that? I don't know, but if I shall guess; you are confronted with your behaviour, outer things, and you can't change/ you don't want to change, and instead of keeping to the facts, the subject, you start to go to personal attack on me instead, and you should say sorry; you make more and more mistakes, and I give you feedback on that, but you don't want to listen.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 10:27:36 GMT -7
Hi I comment inbetween: You: "How do I behave? did you see any sin in my behavior? Did I break even one of the commandments in offering my advice to you?" I: Yes, you can have broken all of them. You: "Did I not honor God above all else?" I: No, the way we honour God (if He exists) is by keeping his commandments that will create good fruits like peace, love, joy. Maybe you threat other people shitty that can create ****. You: "Did I make myself idols?" I: Yes, yourself; claiming that you understand nearly everything, that you are nearly God. You: "Did I call God's name in vain?" I: You behave arrogant; that doesn't honour God's name. You: "Did I disregard the holy day of rest, or try teach you to do so?" I: Your behaviour can hurt other people and make it difficult for other people to rest on this day. You: "Did I dishonor my parents?" I: Yes, you behaved shitty in here; that doesn't honour your parents. You: "Did I murder or call you names?" I: When you hurt people, they might get depressed, act out/ get one step closer to acting out, and acting out is death. You: "Did I commit adultery or encourage that behavior in you?" I: When you behave shitty, other people can get hurt, and then they can act out; that can lead to adultery or it is adultery? You: "Did I steal something from you?" I: When you behave shitty, you can hurt other people and kind of steal their life. You: "Did I lie? Or can you demonstrate that what I said doesen't correspond to truth?" I: You write in this post: "I'm not breaking any commandment by offering my help to you with the best intentions, therefore you can't accuse me." This can be a lie; it is not so that if someone does something and claims that it is with the best intentions, then everything is fine. Your: "Did i desire something that's lawfully yours?" I: When you breake other peoples boundaries, you can steal their time and energy. You: "If I didn't break any of the commandments how can you say satan is my father more than Christ? What basis do you have to make such a big accusation? Let the other members be our jury. And utimately let God be our judge." I: - You:
"I offered you help. Didn't mean you harm." I: So if you claim that you mean something good, then everything is fine. It doesn't matter what actually happens? You: "And about what you said earlier, someone who kills with "good intentions" does so knowing he's sinning, therefore he's guilty." I: Are you sure they know? Can you read their mind? Those who killed Jesus propably didn't know that they did something wrong? Jesus prayed: "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they are doing." You: "I'm not breaking any commandment by offering my help to you with the best intentions, therefore you can't accuse me." I: So you can do everything you want and claim that the intentions are good, and then other people shall just accept? You are a dictator? You:
"Anyways, for the last time I'll answer point by point...but then I won't write anymore.
1. I observed your words, which expressed very well what you assumed." I: What did "Man" assume? You:
"2. I didn't come up with my advice from nothing. i read your post, where you expressed your doubts and worries. A normal and godly reaction is for a fellow human to offer advice and help. What you wanted and needed seemed pretty obvious from that first post of yours." I: So there are no other interpretations? You: "3. "I think those needs must be met, but that should be in a way that is okay. I am not sure how this can be." " I am not sure if that dancing in itself is acting out" "I am not sure if that dancing in itself is acting out" "But if dancing also is acting out, then I don't know how I can live without acting out"
These doubts and worries. "I'm not sure" "I don't know" usually express doubt and worry.
4. I don't see where you take this rule from. I'd rather say he who meets has the responsability to do so as well as he can, since there's not knowing how to meet someone perfectly at 100%. And I know you took it the wrong way because I know what my intentions were. In any case I apologized, and more than once." I: So if your intentions are good, then all other people make mistakes if the results are not good? Because your intentions can not be wrong? It is impossible that you can have any wrong thoughts? You think, do and speak everything right always? You:
"5. You misunderstood my intentions. We already talked about that so let's not repeat it." I: You blame "Man" for misunderstanding, making a mistake; can there be other possibilities? Can it be that you actually acted wrong and that "Man" did not misunderstand anything? Can it be that you blame others for your own mistakes instead of taking responsibility for them? You:
"6. In your first post you already kind of clarified what your doubts were, and what you were unsure of. A person that posts to this forum does so to share and take advice from others. Kevin and Nikanor did so for me and I didn't get offended at them. If you felt in any way disturbed by the way I offered advice, i apologize again, for I did not realize it was such a delicate matter to you." I: How do you know why people post here? Can you read their minds? How do you know that this was "such a delicate matter to" "Man"? You blame "Man" for your own mistakes and try to put "Man" down as something strange, weak instead of taking responsibility for your actions? If you don't repent, you might be angry, stressed and so on, and then you will ned a fix, and that will lead you downward to hell of isolation and death? It's the same with everybody who do mistakes?
You: "7. I don't have a reason to apologize for my willingness to help someone." I: I agree, but when you fail in your attempt you should apologize. It's the same with everybody. You:
"Those things being said:
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."" I: Again you try to blame "Man" for putting boundaries for your shitty behaviour instead of listening to feedback about Your blindspots? So maybe "Man" is the one that should leave you. You:
"I'm done discussing with you anyway. It seems you don't want any help, so I'll just leave you be. Maybe the others will be more helpful." I: How do you know anything about "Man"'s willingness to receive help? Can you read "Man"'s mind? What do you think "Man" needs help to? Have you checked it out? Are you able/ capable of comming with this help? If not, why do you blame "Man" for lack of willingness to receive help? You blame "Man" because "Man" confront you with your own mistakes in your behaviour and instead of doing something with it it you attack "Man"'s inner life that you know nothing about? You get feedback on your blindspots in behaviour, but instead of doing something with it, you attack the one that give you feedback personally because you don't want to change can be my guess?
You: "Blessings,
Al" I: You behave shitty, and then you bless; that's not good?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 10:41:09 GMT -7
I wonder if it is so that people get aggressive when they face something they can't face; if I for example write "God if He exists" instead of "God" people might get very aggressive and blaming? Why? Because they face their own doubts that they think it is difficult to handle/ face and instead of handling that, they attack the one who in a way pointed at their problems? They got in contact with their problems with doubt through that person..? And instead of handling those problems, they attack that person?
It's normal all over the world? People attack those who point at problems instead of handling and dealing with the problems?
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KevinesKay
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Post by KevinesKay on Mar 8, 2015 16:09:49 GMT -7
Hi, I decided to remove this reply because I was not saying these words out of love, but out of anger and hatred. "Man", I apologize for my anger and my behavior. I hope that you forgive me. Thank you.
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