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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2012 2:50:47 GMT -7
Great work!
On tenderness afterwards: I used to come out of counseling sessions feeling just drained - time to relax; I've done my work for the day. Today, that's less true, but I still come out wanting to sit and have a snack before going on.
I'd like to say this shows what hard work I'm doing, but probably the reality is that what it mostly shows is how much inner resistance and fear there still is that needs to be overcome in being honest.
On being weak and being a loser: Humans are weak. It's who we are. It's why we help one another, and why we need to rely on God.
That doesn't make us losers. It makes us beloved children.
Tim M.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2012 3:02:51 GMT -7
Hi Tim,
[user=22715]TM2[/user] wrote: I'm sure you're right. For me, I think it's also that there's a lot of pain somewhere deep down, and talking about these troublesome subjects begins to lift the lid and expose these deep places. This inevitably hurts, but it seems to be it's an essential part of the healing process. I guess "no pain, no gain" is quite à propos here. TM2 wrote: My comment was admittedly a little flippant. I used to think that being weak was something to be avoided; for the last couple of years, I've learnt that, as you say, it's part of being human – and in fact, it's our very attempts to cover up and deny our weakness that lead us into all kinds of trouble. 2 Corinthians 12:9 expresses very well why this is true and why it means we need God. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that we can only really receive God's grace when we come to the end of our own strength and acknowledge our utter weakness. I'm still learning to live in the truth of this. As for "loser", I only see myself as a loser in comparison to the super-perfect, super-in-control and together individual I somehow always thought I ought to be. Thanks for your encouragement  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 21:30:20 GMT -7
I had my second counselling session a couple of evenings ago, so thought I would post a quick update.
My counsellor asked if there was anything specific I wanted to discuss, so I shared some things I'd been thinking about and we went from there. We ended up spending most of the session talking about my relationship with my wife – where the problems are, and some simple tools I might be able to use to start to find a better way forward – including some ways of opening up a conversation about our relationship without her feeling threatened or put under pressure. I don't think I'm quite ready to take that step yet, but it's good to be able to think towards how to get there.
I've been thinking a lot about my emotional neediness and where it comes from. I read something on another forum that really resonated with me in a big way – a guy was saying that, in the past when he was stuck in his addiction, he realised that the only time he felt loved was when he had sex with his wife. I realise this has largely been true of me. I know my wife loves me. There are many reasons why I know this. But so often what I feel does not comport with this knowledge. I feel rejected, not good enough, etc. And these feelings can be triggered by the slighted thing she says or does, or doesn't say or doesn't do. This probably sometimes makes her feel like she can't do anything right.
What I still don't really understand is where this neediness comes from. I was never abused in any way as a child, so I can't put it down to any of the various types of trauma that many have to contend with. The conclusion I'm beginning to come to is this: when I first came across p at the age of about 16, and when I began to mb regularly shortly thereafter, it had a powerful effect on my inner programming. I had never really had any experience of relationships or intimacy, so my heart was a blank page, and unfortunately, it was p and mb that began to write on that blank page, and what they began to write was the program that would drive my thinking and behaviour for years to come. It's only now, 25+ years later, that I'm beginning to understand just how deviant this programming is. It's a shocking thing to discover that there is something so awful and twisted at the very core of who you are. As a Christian, I thought I understood that there is something very wrong with our hearts, and that's why we need redemption. But until the last couple of years, I realise that this was fairly academic and theoretical. Now I see it in all its gory awfulness. This is just a theory, but it's the best explanation I've come up with so far for the way I am.
So I need to somehow de-program all this faulty programming and rebuild from a proper foundation, based on love and not lust, giving and not just taking. But it's easier said than done — no matter how much I see and understand the need for it, no matter how determined I am, merely deciding to be different doesn't work. I am a collection of reflexes, thought patterns and behaviours that is so ingrained that willpower alone cannot overcome it. I guess this is why many p and mb addicts come this far and then give up and slide back into acting out. I am so desperate not to do that, but working out how to move forward from here is so hard. This is my prayer:
Create in me a clean heart, O God
And renew a right spirit within me
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 22:02:24 GMT -7
Thanks for sharing Learningtolive. I have somequestions for you: How do you know your wife loves you and what is love for you?
(You don't need to answer online.)
Best regards
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 22:19:28 GMT -7
The most obvious reason I know my wife loves me is that she has stuck with me and showed incredible grace, patience and understanding when I dropped the bombshell on her that I had been using p.
As to what is love, well, that's the $64 million dollar question. I'm realising that much of what I thought was love on my part was, at best, polluted with self-interest. For example, when I have done things for my wife out of "love", many of them have been out of a need to have her appreciate me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 2:31:07 GMT -7
Learningtolive; Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 14:12:30 GMT -7
[user=79529]learningtolive[/user] wrote:
One big, important thing you did there was being honest and open with her about it. She appreciates that.
My wife kept telling me that, but I didn't listen and hear her. Now it's one of my hard-learnt lessons.
Stay true and straight, learning!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 11:31:49 GMT -7
Hi everyone, I joined this forum a year or so ago – you’ll find a background post here: www.blazinggrace.org/forums/forum7/2013.htmlSo, in summary, it’s over two years since I owned up to my porn problem, my wife forgave me and my marriage was restored. We enjoyed a few months of incredibly emotional and physical closeness. The physical side lessened in intensity, but things were still mostly pretty good between us (especially considering where they had been before). A year or so later, I am in a place of desperation. I’m 41 years old, and while I don’t want to use the term “midlife crisis†(it’s such a cliché), I am going through a blacker period than I have ever known. It’s not just the sense of disappointment with life in general and with myself more specifically; it’s a feeling of being trapped in a situation from which I see no way out. On my worst days, it’s a real struggle to get through the day. A lot of it, I think, has to do with how things are between my wife and I. Having had a period during which we often talked about deep, real things, we seem to have fallen back into a superficial level of relationship. I know she finds it really hard to talk about deep things, so I guess I’ve learnt to keep things inside and not try to force the issue. I recently told her how I feel (though not in detail), and her response was that, aside from one area (which I’ll get onto below), she felt that our relationship was doing OK. I found this quite a big shock, as it’s not my perception. The one area my wife is most bothered about is the relationship between me and our 17-year-old son. Basically, I have been far too hard on him over the years, with the result that things between us are very tense, and this spills over into the general family atmosphere. I know she is right about this, and I really would like to just cut him some slack. But it seems so hard to do in practice – it’s like I’m stuck in a rut of habitual responses and behaviour. But my wife feels that, if things improved in that area, everything in the garden would be pretty rosy. Anyway, I conclude that there is a mismatch of needs and/or expectations of what we need from our relationship. One area where this is most obvious is in the bedroom. We agreed 18 months or so ago to set aside time to make love at least once a week. That on its own would probably have been OK. However, when we did make love, it often seemed like my wife was just going through the motions and “letting me do it†just to satisfy me. This left me feeling hurt and rejected. (I know how women’s needs are different from men’s, and I understand that; I’m talking about a consistent pattern here.) ALternatively, I would feel so frustrated and pent-up that, when we did make love, it would all be over in no time, leaving me feeling like a failure. This has developed into a real catch 22 situation: on the one hand, I don’t want to make love because it will lead to me either feeling rejected or feeling like a failure, so it’s easier just not to bother; but on the other hand, if we don’t make love, after a while I begin to feel very frustrated and tempted. So you may guess where this is going. Having not acted out for months, it got to the point where if we didn’t make love for a while (say a week or more), I would masturbate, just to relieve the tension. This has now become a bit of a pattern. I try to only do it when the urge becomes overwhelming. Of course, immediately it’s over all the old feelings of shame and guilt return, and it’s horrible. I really thought I was done with all that. I can’t tell my wife; I know how much my previous sins hurt her, and if she found out I was slipping again, that would probably be it for our marriage. At the moment it’s about three weeks since we last made love. I haven’t mentioned it, and neither has she. I lie beside her at night wishing she would make some move so that I could feel like she actually needed and wanted me, but it doesn’t happen. I’m wrestling with all kinds of wrong sexual thoughts, and at times it’s been a desperate struggle not to go back to porn (thankfully, I haven’t given in to that temptation). So, in summary, I feel disappointed about the past, and in particular about the way I’ve ruined my relationship with my son and don’t seem to be able to change in that area; I feel sexually starved and frustrated and trapped in a cycle of gritting my teeth and bearing it for as long as I can before giving in to the temptation to masturbate; and I see no way of discussing things openly with my wife and somehow turning the situation around. It’s got to the point where I’ve thought about leaving, on the basis that suffering alone would be better than this – but I’ve never acted on it, partly because I’m too scared, partly because I can’t afford it and partly because I know that in reality I would be desperately unhappy without my wife and kids. So I feel like I’m doomed to accept my lot and be miserable for the foreseeable future. The fact that I’m a worship leader and widely respected member of our church doesn’t help. I love leading worship, and do so as sincerely and truthfully as possible, and the church responds well. But the harder things get at home, the more I feel like just throwing it in and dropping out of church altogether, rather than keeping up the “happy families†act. Sorry this probably sounds like a lot of whining and self-pity. I just don’t know what to do and really needed to be able to share this. Thanks for reading. L2L |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 21:03:52 GMT -7
Dear Tommy,
Apologies for not replying sooner – I only just noticed your post.
I understand where you're coming from. My only adverse reaction is that I think you might be reading a lot into my words that isn't actually there. I am all too aware of the shortcomings of the modern evangelical church and the "easy believism" it promotes. In no way do I believe that sin is OK, to be tolerated and brushed under the carpet; and in no way do I believe that my sin is not my responsibility because I was born with it or it was caused by being hurt by others, etc. I know that true healing and freedom only comes out of brokenness and true repentance. But for me, and for many others too, just banging myself over the head with that mantra isn't enough. Yes, I have to come to a place of repentance and recognition of my true state, and yes, I have to work daily to put to death the flesh; but I also need practical help on how to do that – and for me, this consists of at least two things: understanding my twisted motivations and the lies that I've believed that are behind much of my behaviour; and practical tools to avoid falling into traps.
Thank you for your prayers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 21:43:28 GMT -7
Tommy, what kind of fruits do you see in your own life, like peace, love, joy?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 21:43:29 GMT -7
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 2:29:00 GMT -7
I, too, felt like Tommy's post addressed a general concern rather than one I see L2L manifesting.
I completely lack the qualifications or interest to get involved in a theological discussion here, but have two quick comments on Tommy's remarks:
(1) I want very strongly to affirm Tommy's conviction about the possibility of finding real recovery from this and from other addictions. People really do stop drinking. People really do stop using crack. People really do stop using porn. People really do those things as part of a much larger process of healing broken relationships with God, with other people, and with themselves. As a result of that process of transformation, people find lives not just of sobriety, but of openness and trust and calm and peace and serenity. I know a lot of people who have done those things, and have lived new lives for many years.
It's easy when one frequents boards for sex addicts, which often contain a lot of newcomers and people who are struggling, to get the impression that the best thing that's possible for us is an eternal cycle of struggle followed by relapse in which all we can do is to celebrate that this time I lasted a little longer than last time. I spent 30 years like that, and I know that state well, and I absolutely do not judge anybody who is caught in that state. Plenty of people smarter and more thoughtful than I are there. But we sell ourselves short and we leave others without hope if we don't say the simple truth that lots of normal people find real freedom. If we content ourselves with less, or if friends or counselors or pastors who do not understand the gravity of our addiction or the possibility we all have for transformation encourage us to be so content, then we're making a grave mistake and turning away from a real and transcendent hope.
Partly, I think we sex addicts can drift into casual despair in which we're content with continuing addictive behavior because our addiction is less likely to be life-threatening than many others. We therefore can end up feeling satisfied that we've reduced our use some, and we can casually believe that that's all anyone can do.
But that can't be true. Look at our brothers and sisters who are addicted to things more likely to kill them in short order than our "drug": things like crack and meth and heroin and even alcohol. Those folks can't be content with just reducing their use. They really have to quit, and quit completely, and stay quit. And while many addicts fail at that task and die, many addicts also succeed. If they can do it, we can, too. We may well need all the support these other addicts need, but we really can find new lives, just as they can.
So I want to affirm Tommy's proclamation that transformation is possible.
(2) At the same time, I'm not comfortable with what seems to me to be Tommy's focus on our vileness. We've made grave mistakes, to be sure. There are many wrongs we need to fix. But raking ourselves or the coals, or helpfully raking one another over the coals, doesn't move us toward recovery. Shame and self-hatred are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Addicts hide from negative feelings, fleeing to the predictable comfort of our drug of choice. In the end, though, using fills us with shame and regrets and self-judgment, negative feelings from which we take refuge in isolation and in our addictive behavior, and the cycle continues.
Part of getting free is stopping hiding and learning to see ourselves clearly. We cannot do that unless we can also see ourselves gently. Otherwise, the drive to hide and to deny will overwhelm us. Being gentle with ourselves, even as we would be gentle with others who suffer, is, in my opinion, an indispensable part of the way forward.
Just thoughts out of my own experience, sparked by Tommy's post and in absolutely no way related to learningtolive's journey. My apologies, L2L, if this little meditation hijacks your thread.
Tim M.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 2:47:04 GMT -7
(1) I want very strongly to affirm Tommy's conviction about the possibility of finding real recovery from this and from other addictions. People really do stop drinking. People really do stop using crack. People really do stop using porn. People really do those things as part of a much larger process of healing broken relationships with God, with other people, and with themselves. As a result of that process of transformation, people find lives not just of sobriety, but of openness and trust and calm and peace and serenity. Tim, thanks for bringing hope as quoted above. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 2:52:42 GMT -7
Hi Tim,
Thanks for posting. I don't see your comments as in any way hijacking this thread. In fact, I'm very grateful for the encouragement; something as simple as being reminded that recovery is possible, and that many have achieved it and gone on to live healthy, balanced (dare I say abundant) lives, is very powerful. Thank you for that.
I guess I still struggle somewhat with this issue of being gentle with ourselves. I fully understand the sense of what you're saying, and I guess my own experience proves that simply bashing ourselves over the head with shame, guilt and everything else bad doesn't help us get out from under. In fact, repeating to myself that "I'm nothing but a worm" does nothing other than keep me firmly as a worm. And if I'm a worm, it's no surprise that I do what worms do. How could I do anything else? So I get that, really I do.
What is harder to reconcile is the biblically explicit fact that God hates sin and his judgement towards it burns fiercely. Yes, God is love, but it's easy for us to think that God's love consists only of gentleness and compassion; it also consists of righteous anger and judgement. Therefore "loving ourselves" (an idea I've always been somewhat uncomfortable with) means not only being gentle with ourselves but also being tough, in the sense of being real, honest and uncompromising.
Actually, I'll answer my own question: God's final answer to sin is Jesus. He took God's wrath and judgement in my place. Not so that I could continue to wallow in sin without any consequences, but so that I wouldn't have to. So I guess one could say that if there's anything I can do to work towards being free from the effects of sin in my life – including counselling and whatever other types of recovery work you might care to mention – and I don't avail myself of any of those things, I'm wasting the potential of what Christ did for me.
I don't pretend to have come to any sort of conclusion on this; just thinking aloud, really.
L2L
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 7:56:18 GMT -7
Nor do I have a solution to your concerns. One can certainly make a distinction between hating sin and hating the sinner, but I'm not sure this leaves me completely comfortable with some of the Bible's words about judgment. Personally, I'm finding in recent years that my resistance to judgment of self or others is becoming a barrier between me and Christianity. Where this will lead in the end isn't yet clear. In any case, I understand your discomfort.
I certainly agree that personal honesty is also indispensable. Step 4 in the 12-step program talks about making a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves, and Step 5 talks about admitting to God, to ourselves, ad to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Those steps are a long way from uncritical self-love. Yet I continue to think that I am capable of being that rigorously honest about myself only if I can open up the space between myself and my behavior that gentleness suggests.
Perhaps I am making a distinction between gentleness with self on one hand and acceptance or adoration of myself as I am on the other.
Thinking aloud like you, we are called by Christ not to judge. Ought we not therefore think twice about self-judgment as well? Or perhaps I can learn something from my experience as a teacher. All the time, I am judging my students in the sense of trying to reflect accurately their mastery of the material. Sometimes I get angry at those who seem to be just to be blowing off the class. But then sometimes those students come to me and pour out their souls, telling me about tragic family situations or struggles with physical or mental illness, and I realize that my accurate appraisal of how well they did on the exam says nothing about them as individuals, and that only by loving and respecting them, treating them gently and imaginatively as hurting people can I open the space for them to learn their best. Can we treat ourselves the same way? Are we wrong to imagine that God might be as sensitive and loving as we are?
I think that when I want to hate myself, I am holding on to the right to judge, rather than giving it over to God. "The Church may say that God has forgiven us," I say in essence, "But surely if He really knew me as I do, He would not do so."
I'm pretty sure that's wrong.
So there are my thoughts aloud.
Tim M.
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