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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 6:06:55 GMT -7
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 7:14:05 GMT -7
Hi LadyP,
Glad you found us, sorry you needed to.
Anger is a perfectly normal response, and its duration differs from person to person. In that you have already extended grace on many occasions, the wounds are torn open, and probably made still deeper, each time he betrays your trust. Recovering it will take a lot of work and transparency on his part.
First, (and I'm surprised that this hasn't been put in place already,) you need a good filtering/accountability program. Some are free; others are by subscription. His phone should be available to you anytime.
One definition of insanity is to try the same thing, and expect different results. Whatever recovery tools he has used thus far are clearly not sufficient. He, (as do we all,) needs to get to a point where the praise and assurance he cherishes the most are from God, because even loving spouses are not perfect. Whatever measures he has taken before need to be expanded in intensity and/or scope, perhaps even including a residential program.
After going through so much together, you may need to learn together new, healthy ways of relating to one another, breaking unhealthy patterns that his addiction has set in motion. If he is truly in recovery, you should experience a positively changing dynamic in your relationship.
Praying for you... TruthSeeker
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 9:53:14 GMT -7
Hello LadyP,
I too am very sorry you find a need to be here.
My experience: Seething, white-hot anger subsides, but it's never gone. Trust, once violated, never returns in full measure. Repeated emotional wounding, like physical wounds, creates scars. I don't think you can have a truly "normal" relationship with a sex addict. They've so poisoned their minds with the smut that they alter themselves permanently. There is something about exposure to porn that halts their emotional development. Chances are, you're dealing with someone who has the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. You can never have a "normal" relationship with a 12 year old.
I found my husband's stash of porn nearly two years ago. Since that time he's "found Jesus," "Is in recovery," drank himself into a stupor, spent time in the psyche ward at local ER, asked me to shoot him, has done a stint in alcohol rehab, and still tries to convince me he's in recovery, etc. None of it's true.
Easter weekend, my phone melted down. In an effort to rebuild my contacts list, I used his phone to send myself mutual friends, family members. I found that he still, after two years of therapy, screaming, etc, all of his protestations that he is in recovery.......he has the name/phone number of the woman with whom he had an affair in his phone.
Once an addict, always an addict. How will you know when he's lying? When his lips are moving. If there are no children.........leave...........if there are children of the "marriage"........leave. You'll all be better off. The marriage is a lie, has been from day one. You were induced to marry him by fraud. He's been a sex addict since before you married him. Accept ZERO, ZIP, NADA in blame for his addiction.
I recommend Barbara Steffens book, "Your Sexually Addicted Spouse." Laurie Hall's "Your Husband's secret wars." I would avoid anything written by Patrick Carnes. He assumes that you are "co-dependent" and just as sick as your "husband" simply because you ended up married to a sex addict. He is a quack. Please avoid his writings. They will only further traumatize you.
Please, see your doctor. Level with him/her about what is going on in your life. Make sure your blood pressure is "normal" and get treatment if it isn't. Drugs don't change the underlying facts, but if you need them to get through the worst of this, so be it. Just remember, when you come up out of teh drug induced stupor, your "husband" will still be a sex addict, and 12 years old. I probably should have accepted something to help me with the depression and to help me concentrate. I didn't. That may have been a mistake.
Please post again and let us know how you are doing. We're here to help you through......
My best, Devastated Wife
"Married" 25 years on 5/31/2011......learned he was a sex addict on July 5, 2009.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 7:06:56 GMT -7
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 7:25:22 GMT -7
Dear LadyP,
Look for deeds, not words. Talk is cheap. Please take care of yourself and your kids.
My best, DW
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 8:48:27 GMT -7
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 9:08:52 GMT -7
Hi LadyP,
DW is right--actions speak louder. Repentance, turning around and GOING in the opposite direction, is nothing close to being the same as being sorry to have been caught--again. What you need to know is what is his action plan? What is he going to do to break free that he has never tried before? What is he going to do to break away from his sources of acting out? What is he going to do to be transparent and accountable to you?
TruthSeeker
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 9:15:11 GMT -7
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 9:55:37 GMT -7
Hi LadyP,
I made it very clear to my "husband" early on that if I had to choose between his health/happiness and the health/happiness of my children, that he would lose every time. I also told him that if I ever found out that he molested my children, there would be no need for a trial.
I think my initial advice to you stands. Please take care of yourself and your children, first and foremost. Second, if you even want to consider allowing him back into the house, establish a list of criteria that he must meet before he can move back in. DEEDS, not words. Where he goes now is NONE of your concern. You and your children must come first.
What are the milestones that he must meet to move back into the house? Here's some food for thought:
1. Meet with an addictions counselor once a week for 12 consecutive weeks, allowing you full and free access to the counselor and his/her reports, allowing him back in the house only if he shows the counselor genuine progress. Caveat: You must find a competant therapist. Right before my husband drank himself into an alcoholic psychosis, our marital therapist was convinced he was doing wonderfully well. A week before he ended up in the emergency room, I told her he was not in recovery. She was convinced he was, giddy happy that she'd cured someone. Balogna. Not all therapists are created equally. If you are going to base your decisions on the report of the therapist, you must choose the therapist and be confident in his/her competance.
2. Inpatient rehab? Intensive outpatient rehab? With you having full and free access to the counselor and his/her reports? If he's serious about recovery, this is the best option. My "husband" only showed improvement after he attended intensive outpatient rehab for booze. The folks who deal with chemical addictions are well equipped to deal with the denial, minimization, equivocation of addiction. Sex addicts need that firm hand, not wishy washy nonsense.
3. All porn/smut/chat lines/dating sites/aliases removed from his computers and phones. Monitoring software installed. Accountability partner identified with daily check-in.
4. Every moment of time accounted for.
5. Attendance at multiple 12-step meetings per week. Sexaholics anonymous is full of men who are going through the motions to placate their wives. My husband attended these and I don't think it did any good whatsoever. You might want to think about requiring him to attend Nar-anon. As I understand it, it's a generic 12-step meeting. They don't really care what your drug of choice is, but I think it is important for him to be surrounded by people who are serious about recovery. It is not sufficient to be going through the motions to placate your wife.
6. Unfettered access to his phone.
7. He has to admit that he is a sex addict. He has to say it out loud. He has to admit powerlessness. He has to admit that he's as bad as all the rest of them. No equivocation.
Even with all this......he has to want to recover. Only you can decide if your "husband" is serious about recovery, or seriously sorry that he got caught, again, and that you are taking steps to throw him out. I don't think they typically understand what they've done to you and the family. They don't have teh capacity for true remorse. He hasn't a clue. I suspect he's really sorry he got caught.
Please, please, please..........take care of you and the kids........first and foremost. If he has to sleep in the street, so be it.
My best, DW
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 11:34:53 GMT -7
I'm not a wife, but I wanted to associate myself with the sentiments of this thread - with the importance of seeing concrete action and not just words.
I've uttered a lot of those words myself. The pain is real and sincere, but until that pain gets joined to real commitment to change, belief in the possibility of change, and concrete actions to change, the words don't mean anything.
As an addict, I'd be much more moved if the words included despair at what the addictive behavior is doing to him, not just sorrow that he is hurting you and is separated from you. I don't think we can change for other people. We have to reach the point that the addiction renders life unbearable for us, so that change becomes necessary whether or not we stay married, before we can begin haltingly to muster the courage to face things we've been hiding from all our lives. When we really reach that point and hit bottom, our whole world can start to change. Until we reach that point, sincere as our pain may be, it's all empty words.
I spent a lot of years trying to quit, trying to do better, trying to make my wife happy, failing completely. I was still hiding from her, still hiding from others, still hiding from God, still hiding from myself. Hiding in fear so deep I didn't know it was there, and didn't know I was hiding.
To save my marriage and save my life, I had to reach a point where I was able to be honest knowing that it might cost my marriage, but knowing that I could not bear to continue on as I was. And even then, it has been a path with far too many slips and troubles.
I don't yet hear that in the texts you've quoted. I don't think he's there yet. He may be, but he hasn't shown me. If he's not - and even if he is - then your safety and that of the kids has to come ahead of his convenience. Until then, he says he's separated? Maybe he needs to be right about that.
DW's list of steps someone serious about recovery might take seems very good to me. We differ in some details. Each meeting is different, but I've benefited a lot from S-fellowships. Patrick Carnes speaks to me, whether or not he speaks to DW. And I think DW's thinking about something other than Nar Anon, which is a fellowship like Alanon for family members of drug addicts. But those are details in a completely correct framework.
I'd add another thing. I think an addict serious about recovery has to show humility and acceptance of the consequences of his actions. Want me to move out? OK. My actions led to that. Checking up on me when I know I haven't done anything wrong? Fair enough. I lied for years. Don't trust me yet? Well, I accept that. Why should you? Nothing I can do will change that, but maybe we can think together about what I can do to provide as much evidence as possible of my bona fides. If I get my back up over things like that or start whining about poor me, then I don't think I've really got it yet.
I'll quit and let you carry on in peace, but I wanted to provide whatever assurance comes from knowing that to this addict, everything y'all say makes sense.
Tim M.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 13:29:31 GMT -7
Dear Tim, I appreciate your perspective. On carnes, I think he is best qualified to speak to the addict, but not to the spouse. He completely misunderstands the spouse. He automatically labels us "co-dependent" so I automatically label him a "quack." Turn about is fair play.
I did mean to reference narcotics anonymous, not the family related program.
Thanks for your thoughts.
My best, DW
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 20:01:28 GMT -7
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 1:24:56 GMT -7
Hi LadyP,
Still waiting for the actions. Writing email does not qualify. Actually meeting with people face to face would be a start.
TruthSeeker
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 1:48:23 GMT -7
A few more quick thoughts:
I think someone serious about looking or help isn't going to limit himself to sending an e-mail. He's going to work to see a counselor ASAP. And whether or not he ends up ultimately embracing the 12-step program, he's going to attend meetings. There are multiple chat and Skype meetings daily, spread through the day so that they are accessible to people throughout the world. There are also face-to-face meetings all over the UK - densest in England, but also a few in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (and a few in the Irish Republic that might be the closest meetings for some folks in NI). I drive about an hour to meetings. Outside the Western Highlands and Islands, practically every single person in the UK is within that distance of an S-fellowship meeting. There are electronic meetings for those who aren't.
People often recommend that an addict getting started attend 90 meetings in 90 days. I'll admit that I didn't do that - I probably went to more like 50 - but with the Internet meetings, that's possible. I think it's reasonable to expect that someone will do that, will find a sponsor, will start working the steps, and will share what he finds himself discovering there.
It's good that he's looking at root causes for his addictive behavior. It's also important that we accept responsibility for our actions. Yes, I ended up addicted because of childhood experiences and because of weaknesses in my personality that go way back. And yes, I hurt enormously because of my addictive compulsions. That doesn't mean I'm not responsible for my own actions, though.
Just my own rather hard-nosed take on it, of course.
Tim M.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 2:02:39 GMT -7
A quick comment on Narcotics Anonymous:
It seems a little silly to me, since I think addiction is addiction, but the various 12-step fellowships can be a little touchy about focusing on a particular addictive substance or behavior. AA is very clear about being for alcoholics, not for people with other addictions. NA's literature is very strongly drug focused. Depending on the meeting, a sex addict might or might not find himself welcomed in NA. Both AA and NA have meetings that are open to the public, which would include a sex addict, and meetings which are closed, at which other sorts of addicts would probably not be welcome. So just be aware, if you should want to go that route.
Disclaimer: I know a bunch of NA's but I've never been to one of their meetings. I have been cautioned by AAs about attending closed meetings, but I have attended open AA meetings that I could reach on foot when my epilepsy prevented me from driving to another city to attend SAA/SLAA meetings. The AAs have welcomed me, and I have found a lot of great recovery there, but I have identified myself ambiguously as, "I'm Tim, and I'm an addict." It's not clear to me that delving deeply into specific details of my addictive behavior would have been welcome there. All that said, every meeting is autonomous.
Peace,
Tim M.
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