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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2007 9:48:18 GMT -7
Thank you, Barb, for the reminder from the top of this page. The support I seek, precisely with a view to ending a shameful, decades-long cycle of quits followed by relapses, is at the foundational level of truth. To judge by the literature, including some references to others in Mike Genung's chapter about masturbation on this website, uncertainty about its moral status is widespread, especially in circles that have a high regard for scripture, which does not come forth with a single, simple verse bang on the subject. Temptation is always rooted in deception (the devil "is a liar and the father of lies," John 8:44). When the tempter comes and whispers, "Did God say ...?" (Genesis 3:2), I need to be able, like Jesus, to counter by saying, "It is written ..." (Matthew 4:4, 7, 10). From Genesis 1:27, "Male and female he [God] created them," and Genesis 2:24, "They [two] become one flesh," Jesus deduced with infallible logic that marriage is meant to be permanent (Mark 10:6-9), an inference that is contained in the premises but not apparent on a first, cursory glance. I have asked whether an equally cogent logic might lead from the same two verses to the conclusion (on a different topic) that m. is outside of and contrary to the divine purpose for sexuality, a conclusion also drawn, on the one hand, by the Catholic magisterium on the basis of natural law, and, on the other, by Mike Genung and a small number of other evangelical authors on the basis of a general understanding of marriage as a covenantal communion. Now I am inviting the community of faith as represented by contributors to this forum to come around me and help me overcome my last inch of doubt, inflicted on me partly by my own foolish lingering in m., by confirming that they too can see this implication in these statements of scripture. In the past I have believed I had my proof in other verses (e.g., Leviticus 18:10; Matthew 5:30), only to be convinced afterwards by the most detailed commentaries, and by e-mail consultations with biblical scholars, that those verses are not addressing my issue of m. as directly as I, with my urge to know, had thought. I place my proposal concerning Genesis 1:27 and 2:24, which is not intended as a challenge, in the context of this forum in the hope that the effect will be to strengthen, not erode, others' conviction as well as my own that m. is objectively and universally a moral evil, and not just a special problem that addicts alone have to avoid. That will clinch with a firm No the lead question whether m. without lust is possible. If others need emotional support, I am asking for cognitive support, and I am doing it for a constructive purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2007 10:08:45 GMT -7
Barb,
Thanks for the reminder. I'm certainly not trying to open this debate. I should probably have been clearer that although I don't think masturbation lies at the center of my own pathology, I do regard it as inappropriate behavior for me, and I have given it up. That it is not my central problem doesn't mean that it is not problematic. It certainly is the central problem of many of my friends.
Tim M.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 2:37:46 GMT -7
Romans 8
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 2:52:27 GMT -7
Esperanza: Thank you for suggesting Romans 8. I take great encouragement from Romans 8:4, which says the Spirit of God enables us to succeed in keeping God's law. Also I am praying for a deeper experience of what it means to be led by the Spirit (verse 14): my hunch is the Spirit is back of our desires and motivation to do God's will. Is there another part of this chapter that you would like to draw to my attention?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 5:31:00 GMT -7
Hi Paulos, I find Galatians 5 to be a powerful chapter about the power of yielding to the Holy Spirit. I heard a message recently on Eph. 5:18, which explained that being filled with the Sppirit is the same as being controlled by the Spirit. The picture is that filling ourselves with wine controls our behavior, to our detriment. I wonder how your wife might answer the question, "Honey, I am praying and seeking to choose and exhibit in my daily life the fruit of the Spirit so I may more effectively love you as Christ loves the church. What choices of behavior would speak that most volubly to you?" TruthSeeker
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2007 2:57:29 GMT -7
Truthseeker: I asked A. last night. Her answer: More hugs on a daily basis. This doesn't come naturally for me, as my family of origin expressed togetherness by talking, never by hugs. But hugs I can supply. Also A. is a type-A personality, always on the go, usually moving by foot from here to there, never easy to catch and stop for a romantic moment. I shall make the effort.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2007 4:12:25 GMT -7
This thread has shifted from my question, which I want to renew and sharpen. First let me reiterate that my conscience is seeking understanding; I'm not wishing to be contrary. When I'm tempted to masturbate, I tend to abandon the view that this deed is a sin, the view toward which I lean, and rationalize instead the view that it is a natural outlet. Both views are well represented in literature on the subject by Christian authors, even conservative-evangelical ones, so there's never any difficulty lining up authorities and doing a mental flip-flop. I seek grounds to put a stop to this oscillation.
Briefly: Of the many shades of opinion out there, the two that stand out to me are these. (1) M. is universally and objectively a moral evil, because it violates the unitive end of sexuality (i.e. to join two persons in conjugal affection). (2) M., precisely because there is no relationship, does not violate any specific biblical injunction about sexual practice, all of which concern relationships; it is more comparable (for a man) to a nocturnal emission than to coitus, and may be viewed as a deliberate seminal emission as opposed to the haphazard, spontaneous ones of nature, therefore as an adjustment; because it lends itself to habitual practice there is a danger in it if done excessively, or as a comfort for non-sexual traumas; but it is a potentially noxious act that, like drugs, can be justified under controlled circumstances to relieve human misery. According to the first view, any human being who masturbates thereby sins. According to the latter, m. is off limits to sexual addicts or others who are deeply troubled by it (as an alcoholic must be a teetotaler), but the phenomenon itself would fall into the category of Romans 14:5, 22: "Let each be fully convinced in his own mind." "Blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves because of what they approve."
In the absence of a direct verse in the Bible to address the issue of masturbation, to what criterion do we turn for a decision? Do we go to 1 Corinthians 7:1-9, where marriage is the sole remedy for inflamed and unsatisfied sexual desire? Or do we go to 1 Timothy 4:4, where "everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, provided it is received with thanksgiving"?
To add a personal note. Neither my parents nor my church mentioned masturbation as I was growing up, so I was completely unprepared for the information that came my way in a health class at school when I was 12, and by 15 I had learned. The first book I turned to for guidance was a college health textbook on my father's shelf, which gave the usual secular line that m. is a developmental stage that will be transcended in marriage. On my confessing it to a youth pastor, he told me it was probably not to worry about as long as it was a physical act free of lust, citing Matthew 5:28 on the lust end. The first Christian book I consulted was Lewis Smedes' Sex for Christians. Smedes was a highly respected professor of ethics at Fuller Seminary, and concluded that m. is not a sin, that the guilt people feel over it is from other sources in their experience. Herbert Miles, in Sexual Understanding Before Marriage, recommends m. as part of a program of self-control, i.e., to forestall premarital sexual exploration. Finally, when, at the age of 30, I went to a Christian counselor employed by a large, respected evangelical church, after a few personal questions she decided my practice of m. was not a psychological problem. This is my legacy. It is not easy to overcome when the biblical material is so sparse, the arguments from principles are so indirect, there are different possible starting points for reasoning, and weighty authors are found on both sides.
I was raised in a very conservative home and church where dancing, moderate use of alcohol, playing cards, etc. were strictly prohibited. I need assurance that my queasy, negative feeling about masturbation, for which I seek some sort of scriptural explanation, is not just the reflex of a restrictive background and a scrupulous conscience, but comes from a true sense of moral reality. Otherwise, how can I know that my attempts to quit masturbating, which have never been fully successful for 37 years, are not a struggle against nature itself that is doomed to fail?
I'm suggesting that Genesis 1:26-8 and 2:18-24 can resolve the issue. These verses hold up an ideal in which man and woman are complementary. From this ideal Jesus argued the permanence of monogamy (Matthew 19:4-6). I would like to conclude the necessity of interpersonal communion in sexual intercourse. That would mean that m. is always wrong. Am I out on a limb, or do others see the same implication?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2007 8:28:16 GMT -7
Paulos, I won't get into debate about the subject, except to point out that the evidence here and on other Christian forums is that many people have now stopped this habit. The evidence is definitely that you can quit and with God's help, you'll quit sooner than later. Remember Hebrews 12, verse 4, "You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin."
I am not sure if this is shedding of blood might also be a reference to Jesus sweating blood while He was praying in Gethsemane. Apologies for the diversion. There is a scientific explanation for this phenomenon. It's a very rare occurrence associated with the most extreme stress. Hematohydrosis. As you are clearly an academic, I recommend you read Dr Mark Eastman's article, The Agony of Love, which is biblically based analysis of the sufferings of the Saviour, scientifically informed. You can find the article through an internet search engine. Guitarist63
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2007 13:34:07 GMT -7
Guitarist63, Many thanks for passing on what you've found helpful about meditating on Jesus' sufferings. I'm aware of hematohydrosis (Greek for "blood"--haema "sweating"--hydrosis), as a physician once drew it to my attention. In Hebrews 12:4, what the recipients of the epistle are resisting is ostracization of Christians by the surrounding society (compare 10:32-4 and 13:13), and not to have shed blood means their community has not yet faced any actual martyrdoms as yet. So I'd hesitate apply this verse to our common sexual struggle. I do take encouragement from your words that some have indeed been able to overcome masturbation, and am continuing in prayer for you. By the way, does what I'm saying about Genesis 1:26-8 and 2:18-24 make sense to you?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2007 8:07:11 GMT -7
Paulos, glad the encouraging news about the success stories of those quitting, is helpful. Apologies for my misreading of the significance of the words in Hebrews 12, verse 4. I will read those other chapters and verses you reference with my concordance. The verses you quote in chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis are self-explanatory and are clearly focused on sexual union between man and woman (Adam and Eve). There is no talk of whether "m" is wrong and the word is never mentioned in the Bible but clearly the Bible speaks of sexual love between man and woman (man and wife) as God's intention and that is the way it should be. Genesis 2, verse 24 of course mentions wife. Guitarist63
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2007 13:03:29 GMT -7
Thank you, Guitarist63. That's the sort of feedback I need.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 4:13:35 GMT -7
yeah some people use eph 5:5 to condemn masurbation as uncleanness, and to say that people practicing it(unbroken pattern) will not inherit the kingdom of God...........so.......will masturbation keep someone out of heaven?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 5:02:16 GMT -7
Dear J714, Have you read www.blazinggrace.org/Whatlustdoes.htmFor me, lust has been a cruel master, stripped me off from joy, dignity, and everything I have. And, I think... those times were hellish enough... Forgive me for asking this, Are you afraid for your salvation? In your mind, what do you think God feel for you? Angry? Neglecting? Who do you picture God? As a Shepherd? As a Discipline Sergeant? As a Teacher? Wish I can help you more...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 5:05:56 GMT -7
it doesnt matter what i think.....im only concerned with what Gods word has to say .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 5:21:13 GMT -7
That is a very good reply J714. Are you willing for His Word to change the way you see God?
Then read Isaiah 40
And then, will you share with me, How His Words, change the way you see Him?
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