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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2016 19:42:46 GMT -7
Hi, Sorry I haven't posted in a while. Husband and I aren't doing much better...we are starting therapy this week though which I am looking forward to. We were supposed so start last week but had to cancel our appointment at the last minute due to a possible forest fire/evacuation..which thankfully didn't happen! (All part of living in the mountains..😉).
I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions for things to ask her to make sure she will be helpful to us and our situation...I have multiple things I want to ask and bring up, but also wanted to see if anyone had any pointers as well.
This is more of a general question...but in a lot of the forums, articles, etc. I have read, it seems that the husbands porn addiction (or severity of it) comes to light either during pregnancy or right after. This was always odd to me and something I have thought about a lot. I was curious if anyone had any insight..? Is it because our intuition is heightened..or are the men so stressed that they stop being so careful about hiding it? Guys are welcome to respond as well...it just seems so common it has to be more than a coincidence.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2016 14:53:54 GMT -7
Hi Kimber I hope the counselling goes well and your hubby sticks with it.
As for your question about the addiction becoming evident during or after pregnancy I have some thoughts. For me I was free of all porn for 16 years after I was born again. It was during a very stressful time in my life with my father's battle and death to cancer along with a very serious battle in our church that I fell into chatting, innocently at first then increasingly it became sexual and addictive. I have talked to many addicts whose addiction started as a result of a close family death. I confessed to my wife before she found out because I felt God asking me too.
I have also talked to may addicts about when their sin was exposed. I believe in many cases God sets up circumstances where addicts get caught, usually as a result of getting increasingly bold, arrogant and careless in their addiction. I believe for myself and many addicts sexual pleasure is the most important thing in life which in my opinion for an addict is lust not love. This lust and sexual release is necessary as a coping mechanism for pain and low self worth. I grew up reading Penthouse forum and fantasy was my escape from a very, very dysfunctional home life. You see I believed the lie that my worth and affirmation as a man came from sexual conquest and relationships with women. It should have come from my dad, it didn't because he had the same issue as me. The problem with lust is it is never satisfied with normal monogamous, sexual relationships for very long. Sex with your spouse doesn't excite like it used too because it becomes all about how it makes you feel rather than loving your wife. When your spouse gains a little weight, or gets pregnant or points out some character issues you don't feel affirmed as a man and you start looking else where for your new high, excitement or fix. Porn becomes an easy fix as it doesn't require any courage and there is always something out there that is more forbidden, exciting or even abhorrent to your "sane self". You become 2 people hating your dark side causing more pain and the need for more of your drug. It is bondage and a endless cycle of lust, obsession, excitement, acting out, release and then guilt and shame. Only the grace of God can break you free from this cycle. I pray every day for that freedom and grace.
I hope that helps a little as to what drives porn addiction. It all starts with an unaffirmed boy in a man's body, lots of pain and exposure to a false god....Porn.
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KevinesKay
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Post by KevinesKay on Sept 11, 2016 19:35:48 GMT -7
Yeah, I can agree a lot with what Braveheart said. I want to add that pregnancy and children can add more stress to someone's life. And PA is a coping strategy that I've used for many years to deal with stress. It's not uncommon for a PA to start up an old addiction or to increase his P usage to deal with the additional stress. And with increased usage, comes to added probability of getting caught.
Now when it comes to therapy. Looking back, I've recognized that P was not the only issue in my life. My emotional anorexia enabled me to be completely unaware of my spouse's desire and need for love and how to meet that. In fact my PA and emotional (love) anorexia fed off of each other. And I couldn't deal with one without dealing with the other. Not every PA deals with emotional anorexia, but a lot do. During this time, my ex was a love addict, sexual anorexic. Pretty tragic, but very common in the s*xual addiction community.
What I'm getting at is during counseling, I would like to see couples be able to see each other for who they really are. The husband may not be Mr. Romantic, but instead shows love in a much different way. And for a PA husband, s*x may be the only "love" that he's familiar with. He has to learn that s*x does not necessarily equal love. He needs to understand that he's been chasing after counterfeits, and he needs to accept that the love that motivates his wife is much different. P tells men that women are solely charged by physical s*x. No other love is necessary, no romance, no communication, no commitment. And it's a lie. Woman are not P stars. He has to learn to embrace the real woman in his marriage, and put away the "magical" one in P.
And the wife will need to learn that what makes her husband feel good is different than what makes her feel good. So when two uniquely different people come together, work will need to be done to ensure that both people lay aside their own expectations, and learn to embrace each other unconditionally for who the other person really is, not for what we want this person to be. And we often have to come out of our own comfort zones to demonstrate love to the other in ways he/she can appreciate it. This won't always feel good.
For me, marriage meant me surrendering my privilege to feel good. It meant that I love Iris more than I love s*x, more than I love "love", more than I love feeling good. And she has demonstrated the same to me. We're learning to love each other for who we are, not for what we do for one another or how we make each other feel. Yes, there are good moments that come from marriage, but our marriage is not based on good moments. It's based on the commitment to love each other unconditionally in all circumstances. That's where God called us to be. On our own, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible.
So I believe a good counselor should assist the couple in breaking down the expectations, and embracing the miraculous differences that God has designed in both the husband and the wife.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 11:35:58 GMT -7
Thank you both for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate it! You both brought up some very good points and explanations. Braveheart, I am sorry that you your dad had cancer...my mom was diagnosed when I was 18 and it was one of the most difficult times for our family. Everything that you said made perfect sense as far as finding validation thru p. My husband didn't have anyone close to him pass away, but there were two significant events in his late teens/early 20s that definitely kicked his p use into high gear. So I give him kudos for being able to recognize the connection between the two. KevinsKay, I can totally see p and mb being a coping strategy. Looking back on the past few years with my husband, it did seem to get worse when things were stressful (according to what he has said. I very rarely found any evidence of it one his phone.) And I really like your expectations on therapy. I am really hoping this this therapist will be able to help us work thru this. Recently I have noticed a change is his willing to talk about this issue with me...and I would love a guys perspective on this as well as a womans. When the extent of is p usage and lying about all came out back in May, he was willing to sit and talk and answer all my questions, which I appreciated. And i started to feel closer to him and hopeful. And although I *think* his p and mb have stopped, he still continues to look at other women. When I bring it up, he lies and says he was making sure they weren't going to walk into the road (I've never almost blown a stop sign making sure a man wasn't going to walk into the road...) or flat out denies it, even when I just saw him do it. And then he just shuts down and turns into monosyllable man. Why would he lie when he knows I saw him do it and why all of a sudden does he not want to talk about it when that is a big part of what I need? (and for the looking at other women to stop.) It's not like I start screaming at him the minute he gets home about this. I only bring it up when I see him check out other women or some other legit reason presents itself. Now he doesn't think we will ever be happy and we should just call it quits now before we are 10 years down the road hating each other. I feel like all this is a cop out, but how to I get thru to him? Also, I don't feel like being intimate with him nearly as much....but I'm afraid if I don't, he will return to p and mb. He has never said this to me, but I do feel pressure to keep him happy, and afterwards I can feel cheap and disappointed in myself. And it doesn't help that he can still be selfish in bed. I'm not withholding to punish him, I just honestly don't want to as much. But I feel like if I stop, he will blame me for returning to p and mb... I have a difficult time setting boundaries which is why I'm reading about it and will ask the therapist as well. I just don't feel like he gets how unbelievably hurtful and damaging everything he has done it to me and our marriage. And I can't move forward until I really see that he is invested in doing what it takes to fix this, not just the things that he is comfortable with. I've realized his comfort level in one of his top priorities.. Any insight is very much appreciated.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 14:05:29 GMT -7
Hi again Kimber and thank you for your kind words. The fact he doesn't want to talk is not a good sign nor is the fact he is ready to pack it in. I can't speak for your hubby but when I don't talk with my wife it's because I am hiding something. You really need the Lord to intervene in a big way and some how change his heart. I wish I could be more optimistic. I pray that God will soften his heart towards you and your family.
It would be pretty hard to be intimate with someone that is acting so selfishly. You shouldn't have to do it out of fear or guilt. He needs to pursue you. As Mark Gungor says" Be nice to the girl!" I feel so badly when I read stories on here like yours and yet I am just as guilty as your hubby. Take care of yourself. This is a tough journey.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 17:25:17 GMT -7
I didn't think so either. I was very surprised and hurt when he said that yesterday. I don't understand how he could bring all this mess into our marriage and then just feel ok walking away! He did apologize today...not for saying that..but for how he has treated me. But he's said it all before so I don't really trust it. I'm at my wits end and don't know what to do. He's still trying to convince me that things I have seen with my own eyes were not what I saw. His denial runs deeper than I think he even realizes. Thank you all for being here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 18:20:05 GMT -7
Hi, Kimber ... Actually, what I really want to say is " oh, sweetie, I am so sorry, so very sorry". The guys have given you some very good information from a guys view. I hesitate to jump on the bus here as I am not in a good place with my husband and I do not want to shadow your optimism with doubt. Call me out on anything that you disagree with.
The fact that he is already stating that maybe you will never be happy and should call it quits now instead of finding out ten years down the road ... well, that translates into he is content with what he is doing and does not want to make any sacrifices to ensure that you will be happy ten years down the road. We both know from what we have read, both here and other resources, that this addiction takes work and a want to in order to beat it.
I could scream when I read that he denies things that you see with your own eyes ... Oh my gosh, that makes me see bats and witches when my husband does that to me. All of the time, he will be on the couch, phone in his pocket, and I will hear the little ding-a-ling noise announcing an incoming text. When I say "you just got a text" he will always say "no, I didn't. It must have been on TV". Like we could be watching the Pope give a speech and he would swear it was the Pope's cell phone going off on the TV. One time I saw him in the yard talking to a lady that was walking on the sidewalk. I asked him who it was, not that I cared, but that I did not recognize her. He said that he wasn't talking to anyone. If I took medication I would swear the dosage was causing hallucinations.
He tells so many lies that he does not even know anymore that they are lies.
My husband talked ONE time about his addiction and that was the day I discovered and confronted. Anything I bring up now, I am told that I need to move past it. That tells me that he is still doing it and is not truly remorseful, yet. The only change my husband made was that he no longer screams at me and picks fights. As far as the P&B, he just got better at hiding it from me. I do not sneak peaks at his phone anymore ... I told him that I would never ever look again. I have images in my head that I wish I would have never seen. God knows what he is doing and he knows what he is doing. And I "feel" that he is doing it.
As far as intimacy ... From where I sit (and I could have this all wrong); You do not have to be intimate with him out of fear that he will go back to the P&B because in all honesty, his actions tell you that he is still there. You have been hurt deeply. The intimacy that was to be shared with only you and him was shared with some fake women or images in his mind. You do not have to move past this in a day or two, or even three, and feel the desire to be intimate with him. This is your body! God designed this body for you ... You choose when you wish to have intimacy with your husband again. And if he pressures you or makes you feel guilty, well, I just don't don't think that is right and I will leave it at that!
When I was in high school (like 100 years ago) I had a boy that was not nice to me. My dad told me that no boy is worth crying over and the one that is, won't make you cry. That has crossed my mind so many times now that I have entered this season of my life. (Not sure why I tossed that in there) :-)
I have been in therapy for over a year. I did not know about the porn addiction when I started going. She did, but I did not believe her! My entire life I have been naive to a fault. I never can imagine someone doing hurtful things to me as I would never intentionally hurt someone else, but one thing that I have learned from therapy, my husband is not a bad man that has set out to hurt me; he is a sick man with and addiction that is taking control of his brain (and his heart). I cannot change him ... He has to want to change himself and he has to be willing to do some work that hurts. He is in a spiritual battle that he is equipped to fight and conquer but he has to want to.
Kimber, you will make it through this. The best advice that I have is to hold on to Jesus and do not let go. He will walk you right through this storm. There are days (less now than in the beginning) when just to call out "Jesus" is all I can do as the words will not come for prayer. He loves us so much, though, he hears us whether it is a lot of fancy words or just calling his name.
Hang in there ... God has this!
Grace
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2016 4:01:21 GMT -7
Kimber, I just wanted you to know that I am praying for you and your husband. My heart hurts for you. Hang in there and keep leaning on Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 12:30:30 GMT -7
Gracey and Amy You both have no idea how much your posts validated how I felt! Thank you! We tried a therapist a few days ago and I have never felt so invisible trying to tell someone I feel invisible. Every time I expressed frustration, pain, etc at this situation, I was met with her blank stare and coldness...but whenever my husband spoke, she couldn't have been more compassionate! She even told me I needed to be more patient and that I was a "hailstorm" to his "turtle"..? I came home and bawled and then began to seriously wonder if I involved in a hidden camera skit or something it was so ridiculous. I also like the point you brought up about my body and the temple of God. I honestly didn't think of it that way...I did while I was single but not once I got married. Thank you. I feel the same way about the lying...it would almost be a relief if I took meds again and could at least blame it on them!! I have decided that I would probably be best if I went to therapy by myself for a while...and focus on me. My husband knows how I feel about everything, how I interpret his actions, coldness, etc...I'm not going to tell him anymore. I can't change him and trying to do so is making me go crazy. He can be so sweet and genuine in most every other area of our relationship, it all makes my head spin. I'm hoping a GOOD therapist will help me separate myself from it and sort it all out. And this forum helps me more than I can even explain! We will be moving into our own place within the next two weeks, so I'm going to try and focus on decorating it and painting (something I haven't been able to do for years due to living in apartments ) and I'm really excited about it! And I also decided I want get a lap top to start writing again..I used to really love it and just made excuses as to why I stopped. I mentioned that to my husband yesterday and I woke up to find that he had spent the morning looking for a really good one for me...it will be here Wednesday! It meant a lot that he did that for me. It's time I get myself to a good and healthy place again instead of focusing on his behavior and if I want to stay or not.. And come to terms with a lot of the issues I have with God...some because of this situation and some from years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 21:12:39 GMT -7
Oh, Kimber, I am so fired up about your so called therapist that if I do not write tonight, I am sure to toss and turn all night. You need to find a therapist that will work with you and you alone. Your husband can find one that will work with him and one day, when you both are on the road to healing,perhaps, you can find one together. Sounds to me as if she has no understanding of the trauma that you have been through. You, my dear are a much better person than I. I am thinking that his "turtle" is lucky you are only a "hailstorm". It would be so easy to be a freight train or a semi truck ... bet the "turtle" would be wishing for a "hailstorm" then. That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. I think I would have told her that if she thought he was so stinking cute, she could take him home with her. I do not believe that you should go back to her. She has no understanding of the trauma that you have been through. Find one that gets it.
Crazy! Oh, I so get how this all makes you feel as though you are going crazy. I have honestly asked my girlfriends if I really am crazy and I just didn't know it and they were too kind to tell me. I, per the advice of my therapist, do not talk to my husband anymore about him. When he is unkind, rolls his eyes at me, makes hurtful comments, etc, I act as if I am deaf. Talking to him about anything is useless and I end up frustrated and feeling bad for things that have come out of my mouth in an attempt to get his attention. He just does not get it and there is nothing I can say that will make him see how he is. Using my words on him is equivalent to tossing pearls in a sows ears.
Writing would be a wonderful outlet for your anger, hurt, frustration, and anything else you have going on in your heart. I write letters to God daily in a journal. When I write a letter that has questions (always) or just things I do not understand, the next day, I find scripture to answer what I questioned and write it in there as well. I have a best friend that has promised to burn all of my journals if anything were ever to happen to me :-)
Kimber, I have to tell you, my heart really started healing when I quit looking at my husband and looked at me. In the beginning I was so consumed with what a piece of work he was and I could find fault in everything and anything that he did or said. It was only when I made the choice to rid my heart of the hate and replace it with love that I began to heal. Oh, I still have rotten days. My heart still hurts when I think of the years that have been lost and can never be replaced and I am certain that this marriage is over. He has his room and I have mine. We have done nothing together since June of 2013. He left this marriage way before I discovered the porn. But I am past the worrying and fretting about it. When I look back over my life, I can honestly say, God has never left me abandoned, stranded, or alone in a fight. He has never not been right there with open arms.
Kimber, as far as those "issues" with God, give them to him. He does not want you to carry them around with you. Cry out to him and tell him what hurts and he will make it better. He hurts when you hurt and he wants it to end. It is okay to be mad at God, we have all been there at one point or another, but in our anger , we keep talking to him, keep loving him and keep trusting him. He will find a way to make right all the wrongs.
I went through the worst time of my life in February when I discovered. I did not believe that there was a God that loved me. For the first time in my life, I didn't know if I really believed what I believed. I could not believe that a God that loved me would let me go through something so painful ... but it was not "just" the porn ... it was something that I had gone through years ago. You see, when my dad died, my mom had what I refer to as a "silly spell". Nasty, drunk, dirty men at our house all of the time. If mom was passed out, they would pound on my bedroom door. My dad was a wonderful man. Absolutely wonderful! So this was so hard for me to understand and the fact that my mom allowed it. I always managed to get away, but it took years to get over the fear of men who smelled or drank. Eventually, my three brothers and I were sent to foster homes. We didn't see each other for four years. It was hard, but I kept believing, Kimber, I knew that Jesus loved me; the song says that ... Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so! I grew up, married a man that I loved, had two awesome children, work in a field that protects children and then one day my husband becomes an emotionally absent jerk. I would have stayed because I promised God I would. After 4 years of this, I can take no more, I was turning into a crazy lady so I placed a VAR in his pickup. The garbage that I heard, honestly, had me throwing up. Once was not enough, I had to start putting it in the house when I went running or was doing yard work. (I did finally realize that I could do that no more as it was so painful). Maybe, I do not know, if the porn would have been man and woman, I could have dealt better but it was father/daughter, and brother/sister, and very young girls. That made my husband one of those men that I had to run and hide from.
I was so angry with God ... I said things that I am so sorry for now. I swore that I would never step foot in a church again, I was never going to pray again, listen to religious music, read the Bible, and I never ever wanted to hear the name Jesus uttered around me.
How could a God that loved me, a God that is a good, good Father, let something so vile into my home, my marriage, my life? I had been through the disgust of yucky men years earlier and I moved past it, not once blaming God, but holding on to him even tighter, loving him even more. Why was my husband now one of those yucky men? Why? If God loved me, surely he would have stopped my husband, right?
I may not know the answer to "why" on this side but I do know that the days that I shut Jesus out were the loneliest days of my life. At times, I wanted so badly to go to my knees and pray but I was so angry there was no way I was talking to "him". I am so thankful that he waited for me with open arms and took me right back as if nothing had ever happened. I am so thankful that he is a God of compassion and nothing can ever stop his love for me. I am so sorry that I almost allowed evil to rob me of my faith.I almost gave in to the devil's ploy. Oh, I am so thankful to be back in the arms of my Father. safe, where the whys do not need an answer today because I am safe!
I am here for you, Kimber ... I will help you with anything, but mostly, I will help you find your way back into the arms of Jesus. He loves you, never doubt that! He has this all worked out and all you have to do is TRUST! Just trust him.
Hugs and Prayers to you!
Grace
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 3:36:02 GMT -7
Gracey you are such a blessing to this forum and an awesome witness for Jesus. I would love to hear your whole story some day. I agree with her Kimber, this therapist sounds very worldly and not helpful for you or your hubby.
I don't want to hijack this thread but I would like to provide some resources that might help you and others understand why these terrible things happen to us as victims and the sins we commit as addicts too. I certainly haven't got it all figured out but it does help to know how and why our spouse turns out to be the exact opposite of what we would have wanted or why we struggle with the same sins as our ancestors. It has a lot to do with vows, judgements and decisions we made in those difficult years and how they end up being a curse.
I have posted some of these before but I think it is worth sharing again. May God bless and heal you both.
The Transformation of the Inner Man by John and Paula Sanford Changes that Heal by Henry Cloud The Power of a Parent's Blessing By Craig Hill Bondage Breaker by Neil Anderson Addictions and Grace by Dr. Gerald May
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 6:13:18 GMT -7
Kimber....wow how did you manage not to throw something at that Counselor? I am glad that you have decided to find an individual counselor for yourself and that you have decided to concentrate on you instead of your husband.
One thing I would like to suggest for your new laptop. Accountability software and a good security password. I would hate for you to find porn on your laptop down the road. That can be such a shock and detrimental to your healing.
Have fun decorating and Painting! I would love to see some of your finished work.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 19:27:29 GMT -7
Thanks, Braveheart, for the reading suggestions. I intended to check in our library at work today but it slipped my Monday Mind. Unfortunately, I am only a blessing when I am at the top of my game, and I really struggle to stay there. I have my moments when I am not such a joy!
Kimber, I forgot to congratulate you on your new home ... your very own home that you can decorate and make yours! God is good, even in the storms he finds a way to sprinkle a little glitter and sparkle.
If God is taking you to a new home, you can bet that he has a plan. That is what I love about him! He comes up with all these wonderful ideas that are so much bigger and better than anything we could ever dream of.
I am keeping you close to me in prayer and I am believing that you will find healing, may not be today and it may not be tomorrow, but you will find it. I Believe!
G
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KevinesKay
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Post by KevinesKay on Sept 20, 2016 19:44:34 GMT -7
My wife went to talk with a counselor about 3 years ago. When she told her about my P use, the counselor tried to convince her that nothing was wrong with P. In fact, she suggested that she watch it with me! How messed up it is when we pay good money to speak with a professional only to have such a person lead us astray. That's why I'm hesitant to recommend counseling to people. Try reading some of the horrible experiences that people have had with counselors on this forum. Some of them would really shock you. Kind of like the blind leading the blind. Choose your counsel very wisely.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 6:24:18 GMT -7
I agree Kevin, choose your counselor wisely. Many are worldly these days and accept this sin as normal. Be sure to interview them...ask them questions and firmly state your beliefs and what you expect from them. If they do not agree with you, shake the dust from your feet and move on to a different counselor. I was lucky with mine, she is a believer and works with addictions.
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