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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2007 2:21:29 GMT -7
Is it sin to lust and masturbate to your wife?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2007 4:19:57 GMT -7
I guess my response is not so much to answer your question, but to ask one of my own. Why do you feel the need to masturbate while fantasizing about your wife?
Are you a traveling businessman who does not see her often? Or vice versa? Is she deceased? Are the two of you separated?
I find it difficult to think of any situations where I would find it acceptable for me to masturbate by myself - regardless of the object of my fantasies. And that is really the whole point. When I masturbated I turned whatever person I thought about into an object. Whether it's a porn actress, stranger, or my wife - when I masturbated I didn't appreciate them as human beings if they were the objects of my fantasy. I think my wife deserves more respect than being objectified in my mind for the sole purpose of my sensual gratification.
I don't know if that's how masturbation works with you, I'm just conveying my story and why I know that masturbating while fantasizing about my wife is not okay. Best of luck.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2007 4:41:13 GMT -7
I apologize, I should have identified myself. I'm the wife. My husband and I are separated. Before we were separated though, it seemed that he preferred M to sex with me sometimes. He usually used pornography, but now he uses me. He says he has no imagination so now that the pornography is gone, he uses pictures that we took a long time ago (which I have asked him to get rid of out of respect for me). I feel exactly how you described it...like an object. I feel like he just replaced the porn. Basically it's the same thing it's just that I'm not some stranger he'll never meet. But doesn't it lower me to the level of porn stars in his mind? Doesn't it make me the same thing? I feel like continuing to objectify me by M to me, I will just be an object to him if we do reunite and have sex.
Also, doesn't the Bible say lust is a sin? It shouldn't matter if it's a stranger or yoru wife...lust is lust isn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2007 5:31:14 GMT -7
Hi HopelesslyDesperate,
I'm not sure that I can think of anywhere in Scripture where lust is mentioned to be connected with marriage in any way. God's design for marriage is in uniting with one another, mutually, which is not occurring with M. My conservative position is, when in doubt, don't. I would hope that respect for your feelings would take precedence over his gratification. My opinion, not chapter and verse.
TruthSeeker
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2007 6:20:23 GMT -7
greetings,
from a mans's stand point, i would have to examine my responsibility from scripture. the command to husbands is to love your wife as Christ loved the church and GAVE Himself for it..
while the scripture gives a husband and wife great latitude in the marraige bed when it comes to mutual satisfaction you have clearly expressed your desires to your husband and what his lust does to you.
is not than the desire that your husband would give of himself for you, the foundation for healing in your relationship.
i would encourage your husband to examine his responsibility and the part he can play in making you feel wanted, protected and emotionally desired as one would protect someone/something very precious.
praying for your husbands healing, peter
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2007 16:11:39 GMT -7
Lust is a drug and should not be relied upon whether it is in a marriage or out. As a guy i used to be confused with this myself. I used to think lust was natural as long as it was directed at your wife. However as i have grown older i have learned the difference between passion and lust. To me there is a black and white difference. In Scripture i can never recall the word lust being used in a postive manner.
However whether or not your husband masturbating to your pictures or not is a sin, that is a different question. To me this is not necessairily an objectfying issue (just my opinion as a guy that used to do the same) it may or may not. If you were together in my peronal opinion this would be an issue for concern. I am not married but i thought that if i was i would like to have my wife in a calender shoot or some other tastefull photograhpy. This would symbolize in my life my choice for her over some nameless woman and my addictions. However anything with nudity or sexuality attached should only be between you and him in the bedroom i feel. Anything with lust and you are playing with fire, a man is not in his right mind when on this drug. Boundaries are simply not respected at this time.
However if you are seperated this could complicate matters. Still not healthy in my mind but there are multiple reasons why porn addicts do what they do. Maybe part of this is his missing you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2007 2:14:53 GMT -7
Okay, my husband says now that it isn't lust, it's passion and desire. How can you have passion and desire for pictures? I'ts not me. It's a picture, just like all those pictures and videos of other women he used to look at. In a VERY abstract way, it's almost like rape. He's using my body against my will for his own sexual gratification. Given I'm not physically there, but doesn't that seem wrong?
Plus, he has always used M in conjuction with P. Then doesn't M open the door for Satan to flood his mind with all those old images he's trying to forget? Isn't it inviting temptation?
I understand that it must be hard since we are not together right now and cannot satisfy each other. But he has always liked his "(his name) time." He preferred it sometimes over having sex with me. Said it's just different. Maybe at that time, it was because he used pornography, so I guess it's possible that it might not be an issue if we were together, but how can I be sure of that? The pictures are not tasteful. They were taken when I was not following the Lord and had no respect for myself. They are provocative and I have asked him countless times to get rid of them out of respect for me, and it is clear he still has none. As far as boudaries go, shouldn't he respect that I consider this a boundary that he keeps stepping out of?
He does say that he misses me and it's how he can be "connected" to me. To me, it feels like it is disconnecting us even more. We are separated for a reason. We aren't having sex for a reason. Can't he respect that? At first my feelings were hypocritical. I still M myself yet was upset that he would. I didn't use any images of course, just what was in my head. When I realized this I stopped. My H was not the only image in my mind. It gave Satan every opportunity to fill my head with impure thoughts and I don't even have porn images ingrained in my mind. I can't imagine how he can keep his thoughts focused on me, without lust, if I can't and I'm not an addict.
Last night my H and I had this disagreement. When I got off of the phone with him, I wanted to M and had impure thoughts. I asked God to take the thoughts from my mind and he did and I was able to sleep in peace. Why can't he do the same?
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Post by TimM on Apr 19, 2007 3:43:32 GMT -7
HD,
There's not a lot I can add to your last post. Everything you say is right. If there is intimacy between you, then he should be willing to respect your clear boundaries and your clear desires about something very personal. It's unfortunate he cannot.
Again, I don't have much advice, but I wanted you to hear the voice of someone on the other side of the fence here saying that every part of your analysis is right.
Tim M.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2007 3:49:39 GMT -7
Thank you. I appreciate your honestly. Validation from someone on the other side makes a big difference.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2007 3:01:37 GMT -7
Just on a side note, I'm surprised how easily Satan is able to infiltrate our minds. I only decided to stop M a couple nights ago and haven't for maybe a week. Since I decided not to do it anymore, the thoughts have been plaguing me. I didn't think it would be this difficult for me because I never really did it that much in the first place. I never had all of these thoughts before. It's like now that I made a stand for God in this area, Satan is trying to tempt me in any way he can. He's attacking my mind. I realize now that it's easier to ignore thoughts of being with another man because that involves another person and "someone would know." But M is private. It on my conscience alone. The Lord takes the thoughts from me every time I ask Him to, but it's kind of annoying being flooded with them out of nowhere sometimes. If this is proving to be so difficult for me, how can my H be successful? His thoughts must be far more graphic than mine. I don't think he knows to just ask God to take the thoughts away, though I've told him He will.
PS...he said he would get rid of the pics if I really want him to and abstain from M until we're together, but that he probably will once in a while when we are back together. I tried to explain how inadequate that makes me feel and he just doesn't get it. I feel like no sound comes out of my mouth or like I'm speaking a completely different language.
GUYS...how can we get through to you?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2007 3:36:45 GMT -7
Hi HD,
Well, I understand, but I'm a woman. Why in the world would anyone want to have an orgasm alone rather than unite with the one they love the most in the entire world? It would say to me, "You're nice, but just not enough."
Pictures ONLY in your hands.
TruthSeeker
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2007 14:15:54 GMT -7
EWWWWWWWWW!!!!
sin is yuck
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2007 3:08:23 GMT -7
If my husband were to masterbate to some pics of me while I said I forgave him for looking at porn, but I still refused him the sexual release that he needed, I do not think the Bible would consider that lust or adultry. On the contrary, LUST is an evil desire to have sex with someone who is NOT your wife. The Song of Solomon is full of the strong sexual desires of a spouse for their mate...and the Bible is silent on masterbation although it is clear about self control. If your wife says she forgives and is withholding...what recouse do you have that is a legitimate? The Scripture's warn couples to only hold back by mutual consent in this area and not to forbid each other your bodies lest the devil bring you into temptation...further it is suggested by Paul that it is better to marry than to burn with passion...
I think too many women do not understand the power of her husband's natural sex drive and discounting that fact or using it as a weapon to train him or purge him from looking at other women while not allowing him to have her either is cruelty. Maybe the real issue is the wife's ability to recover sufficiently from the shock and pain of discovering his porn, rather than imposing an edict that he cannot act out his strong desire for her while she refuses him during her emotional recovery? Just my thoughts...I fear that this is too harsh and legalistic for some. There has to be give and take if forgiveness is is sincere, especially if there is repentance.
The wife is not an object, but for pities sake, a man who is not desiring his wife and is not visually attractive to her is in trouble. I would be happy if my husband wanted me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2007 4:13:19 GMT -7
Unearthed, I have a lot of things I would like to say to you right now, but thank the Lord for holding my tongue. All I'll say is that I would also be happy if my husband wanted me too...ME, not just my body. Congratulations for being able to completely separate your heart from your body to have sex with your husband. I can't do that. I would feel like a whore being used. I'm not using it as a weapon or to train him and how dare you accuse something like that. It took a lot to come to the point of forgiveness, but it doesn't mean evereything is peachy now. So I should just lay down and take it even if I cried the whole time? Even if it felt like rape? Having sex with him when I'm disgusted by him would make me feel dirty like I was the one who was unfaithful. I know because I tried. There was one point where I tried to give up any happiness for myself and just give him whatever he wanted. I figured, as long as one of us could be happy, then it would be okay. It didn't work. He didn't see it, but I cried for hours after. I don't know my H anymore. He's a stranger to me. I'm so glad you are able to give yourself so freely, but don't assume things you know nothing about. I know what the Bible says. This time is for prayer (lots of prayer) and it is mutual. It's justified. I'm refusing the sexual release that he needs? If he needs that release so badly as to hurt me for it again, he might as well go back to porn.
PS...Lust is sin, not with specifications and exceptions.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2007 5:36:43 GMT -7
These Biblical principles are valid just as all of your feelings and responses are..... but there comes a time when you may need to find a way to set aside your natural responses especially if he is repenting and if you want to keep the marriage. The part of this whole thing is that Scripture does give you freedom to divorce because of this, and you may very well be the kind of person who may end up doing just that...not because of being vindictive, but because of what happened to your heart. I am just saying to try to look at it from all viewpoints, including your husbands, because the sad fact is that he wont be able to tolerate the situation indefinately. He will become bitter because you are blocking all avenues of release for him with what looks like indefinately....like telling a glutton that they must not eat a single thing, even that which is necessary to sustain life. There must be GRACE given for repentance, and timing is critical.
I am no rock, I think of leaving everyday, but I am much older than you and have come to terms about our humanity, sin, and repentance. I can only seperate the hurt because of his repentance...that does not mean I do not feel anything, I think of leaving every day but do not act on it for his sake and for the sake of our family. I can choose to stay and live with him in an understanding way as long as he is repenting.
You may not know, I have only been married to my husband for 11 months, all the while I felt that there was "something wrong" but was unable until a few weeks ago to find proof. Prior to me, he was married twenty years to another wife who never discovered this problem, but at the same time, she is the type who does not want to know. She was sexually molested all her years growing up until she left home at 18 and had never been healed...as a result, did not enjoy or want sex with him but would yield every two or three weeks, this was the best she could do with counseling. This got old over the years for both of them, he got frustrated, verbally abusive, and eventually he left feeling defeated and without hope. Eight months roll by, she would not let him back home, and after she filed for legal seperation and a restraining order, he gave up. Yes he is weak, and that is the point. His porn went undiscovered and I believe with all my heart that it was God's judgement on the relationship which led to the divorce because of the porn, but also her inability to face the part she could play in reconciling, discovery and healing. Adopting the idea that "sex is sex, and love is love" was his justification and response to being starved for his desire for his wife, and now it has to be removed so our marriage can survive. But that is our story, not yours.
During that time of their separation, she thought it necessary to taunt him with delivering a watermelon with a hole cut in it to his work...then at another time, asked if he wanted to have sex with her (he said yes, you are still my wife) then got mad at his answer saying she felt like nothing but a "hole" to him. Another time when he told her he was getting very weak, she told him that he had two good hands and to use them. What is my point? She was a prime candidate for utilizing the freedom to divorce, her disgust for him and inability to reconcile her feelings became sealed as time went on (can you imagine if she knew about the porn too?). I am worried that this same kind of scenerio may happen to you two. Please accept my apologies if the principles I presented to you dont work for where you are at during this time....they did not work for my husband's ex wife either. Truly, I do not know how I will react if I find my husband viewing more porn after repenting, if I will be able to forgive enough to continue having sex with him (which is my moral obligation if I expect to stay married), or if I will just simply leave and never look back.
In Him,
Unearthed
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