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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2012 4:58:07 GMT -7
I do not believe my husband when he says he always loved me deeply and I know he is doing pretty darn good now a days. But he doesn't understand why I cannot accept how he thinks and sees things now. He wants to help me see that since his fog has lifted that he sees every experience differently now and is ashamed and so on. That he is not that way... Can that even be? Can recovery after several months let a SA see it all differently? And what about love? How on earth can
he say he loved me and loves me. Feels like more danger to me...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2012 5:52:53 GMT -7
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2012 9:00:50 GMT -7
Thanks. And yes. I have read all but one of those and many more. I have quite the library. I know enough about sex addiction to last me twenty life times unfortunately. I am a firm believer in knowing what you are up against. But he has lied so many dirty lies to use me to get to who he wanted to have sex with .... Well.... HOW does that equal love? I have literally read everything my therapist told me to read over the months. NOTHING says much or says nothing at all about what is REALLY going on with the addict when it comes to the spouse and children. I don't like talking about any of this to him. I don't want to discourage him. I just tell him I do not believe him and I hope someday it will get better. I really think I will simply have to leave. I do truly think he can defeat this. I pray for him constantly. I see big changes. But the damage he was so horrendous I can't bare the pain. I forgive him as a man. I believe everyone should take every new chance they are given. Best of luck to everyone who needs it
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 2:07:20 GMT -7
I think a lot of change and opening of eyes can happen in a few months. Letting go a burden of secrecy and shame that one has been carrying all one's life and finding a hope one never thought was there are huge things. At the same time, I think recovery is (or should be) a long process of deep exploration and transformation, and that it's nowhere near over after the first year.
About his love: I don't think one can understand addicts if one tries to conceptualize us as rational actors whose behavior is consistent. It doesn't make sense that a person with depression who has a fine family and home and job and friends should be unable to get out of bed in the morning, but that's how it works. It doesn't make sense that a person with OCD who wants a snack and is in a hurry can't just this once just eat the M&Ms without first counting them and sorting them by color and arranging them, but some people have to do that. What we as addicts do is no more rational than that.
The self-perception of an addict is very strongly that we are split into multiple pieces. For me, there was a good Tim and an addict Tim, but there was also Tim the father, Tim the teacher, Tim the Christian, maybe others. Those pieces didn't really talk to one another. The addict piece and the good Tim were strongly at war with one another. I identified with the good Tim and not with the addict, and so on some level I perceived the addict's actions as not real, not mine. I would never do that. I won't do that again. That's over. It wasn't me. I don't have to think about it. I can't think about it. It wasn't real.
So we behave inconsistently and deplorably in part because we really perceive ourselves as having more than one personality, and because we hate and struggle to deny the existence of the addict within us. How can we love and lie? From inside, it feels like different people doing the loving and the lying. Or, perhaps better, we tell ourselves that we lie to avoid causing pain for some inexplicable act that we can't figure out why we did and that we desperately long never to repeat. It's just this once. Of course, the lies also protect us from exposure which feels equivalent to death, and they enable our addictive behavior. I'm not sure we always see that.
Can we love in the midst of all that fragmentation and brokenness and all those lies? Yes and no, I think. I loved my wife and kids as well as I could love anybody. I cared for them and I knew my responsibilities. I wanted to love them. I certainly didn't hate them or want them harmed. Knowing the pain I was causing my wife by my addictive behavior was really agonizing to me. Holding my newborn first child and looking down at his worried face was an experience of love I'll never forget.
But did I love them, really? Not in a deep way. I had spent my whole life running from my own feelings. I ran from fear and from shame and from a sense of inadequacy; but in hiding from people and hiding from those feelings, I hid from all my other feelings, too. So while I loved them as best I could, that wasn't very well. Love requires an openness and trust and vulnerability I wasn't capable of. I did my best, and I longed to do better, but my love was a pretty pale thing.
As always, I'm not writing this with pride or with a demand for acceptance or forgiveness or whatever. I'm just trying to tell my story as honestly and clearly as I can in the hope that it may offer some understanding to those who haven't been through this particular hell of what it feels like to be inside it. What you do with that understanding, or whether on reflection you think that I've yet become able to see myself sufficiently clearly that I have any understanding, is entirely up to you.
Peace,
Tim M.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 1:16:23 GMT -7
Thanks for sharing Tim. I can recognize; I.e lieing for my self: I didn't do that. It wasn't me. It wasn't real... Another thing: What is love? What is the definition of love? It's about keeping the commandments of Jesus, isn't it? Or? Best regards Matthew 7,21-29: I Never Knew You21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Build Your House on the Rock24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.†The Authority of Jesus28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. From www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7&version=ESV
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 9:17:53 GMT -7
LOVE "the unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another, accompanied with deep care and affection"
By asking what is love? is it safe to assume this is in direct response with my post? I realized love is a lot of different things to alot of different people but I think we all have a general idea of what I was referring to
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 10:47:54 GMT -7
I think Man was replying to the last couple of paragraphs in my post, where I talked about loving my family as well as I could, but not very well.
And I think Man makes a very interesting point, one I haven't responded to because I'm not sure what to say, but one I'm certainly thinking about:
When I wrote, I was thinking about love as a feeling, which is sort of what May's dictionary definition says. I think that's what the word mostly means in our culture and in our minds. But I think Man is absolutely right when he observes that when Christ calls us to love our neighbors and to love God, He's not talking about having feelings. He's talking about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, visiting those in prison, obeying God's commandments. Christian love isn't the romantic feeling behind the perfect wedding and the syrupy greeting card. Christian love is gracefully dealing with the fact that the baby is crying in the middle of the night again because of the thunderstorm and everyone is exhausted and the 3-year-old says, "My ear hurts" and in order to get to the doctor you first have to go out in the rain with the chainsaw and get the fallen tree off the road.
So Man rightly and interestingly challenges me to look again at my love for my family given that love doesn't actually mean what the greeting card manufacturers say, but what the Lord says.
In some ways, Man's rephrasing helps me feel better. I have worked to give my family food and clothing and shelter, and I've gotten the tree off the road, and I've taken the kid to the doctor in the middle of the night. (Not all at the same time; that's artistic license.)
But in other ways, the problem remains. I've done the work selfishly, because it's stuff I love. I've often used the importance of my work to leave my wife doing far more than her share of the labor. I've very often come first.
Further, and this begins to tie the two meanings of love together, people have emotional needs as well as physical needs, and those needs I have often not met, not seen. People need intimacy and closeness, trust and honesty. People need to be respected and not abused. People need to be listened to and not commanded. I've mostly failed at all those tasks.
So I think I want to stay with my claim to have loved as best I could but not well, but I very much like the exercise of trying to ask the question with a more theologically precise definition of love.
Tim M.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 12:07:17 GMT -7
I see what you are saying about the acts and selfishness. My husband discusses this with me often. Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 21:18:17 GMT -7
MayB, I don't know what love is. I just wanted a dialogue.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 21:24:16 GMT -7
Tim: Thanks for sharing. I might develop when I am in dialogue.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 7:31:38 GMT -7
Dear Tim,
I always find your posts insightful. Thank you for sharing.
My best, DW
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 10:08:09 GMT -7
Thank you. Writing helps me clarify my own thoughts and feelings. As I said recently on another board, I write these long posts because that's the only way to find out what's in them. But I'm very pleased if in my recovery I am learning at times to touch my own heart well enough that I can touch someone else's, too.
I've missed your voice here, but I realize that you have a lot of self-care on your own plate right now.
Be well,
Tim M.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2012 8:30:25 GMT -7
Hi Tim,
Self care, Mom-care as she was in and out of the hospital a couple of times, my aunt passed away in Chicago so I had to spend a week there, tax season... Yes, I have a lot on my plate right now. Also questioning if the "husband" has a budding addiction to pain meds. He had a two root canals, two rounds of antibiotics, two rounds of vicodin. Ultimately he lost the tooth, but then the dentist gave him percocet. My antennae are up. When I asked about his pain level and whether the meds were triggering cravings, he said: "to tell you the truth, I don't know where they [the meds] are." That didn't answer the question I asked and the anticipatory bolstering tells me there is a problem in the making. He lied to me again.
I bid you peace, health, and serenity......
My best, DW
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