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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2006 14:48:50 GMT -7
I am wondering whether or not a Christian can loose his or her grace (salvation) in Christ's shed blood through repeated acts of rebellion (i.e., giving into sexual sin when he knows it is wrong). I know Christ said that we should forgive seventy times seven if necessary, and that His own capacity for mercy is far greater than our own. Yet there are times when I slip up that I feel disgusted asking once again for forgiveness and mercy, because I've done so a hundred times in the past. I have heard from some Christians that once obtained, salvation in Christ cannot be lost. There are others who reject this, and say that salvation can indeed be lost by a wayward follower of christ. Both use scripture to support their arguments. And leave me totally confused. I'm not well versed in scripture. What are some of your thoughts on unlimited salvation and election (God selecting who will be saved and who will not be saved)? I'd also like to hear your thoughts on my first question....will my repeated falls cause me to lose my salvation?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2006 17:01:27 GMT -7
The following is taken from Cedarville University's doctrinal statement.
6. We believe that all who receive by faith the Lord Jesus are born again by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God and thereby become the children of God forever and are eternally secure. John 1:12,13; 3:3-16; 5:24; 10:28,29 ; I Peter 1:23 ; II Peter 1:4-11. I would add 1 John 1:8-9. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I do not see anything there that indicates it is true only a certain number of times.
I would also suggest reading Romans chapters 6 and 7, which speak both of not taking grace for granted, and of the apostle Paul's own struggle against the flesh, neglecting to do the good he desired to do, and doing the evil he desired not to do.
I have never quite figured out what the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is, but I find no evidence that fleshly weakness is it. Continue to fight the good fight.
TruthSeeker
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2006 15:47:03 GMT -7
Yes, salvation can be lost. Ezekiel 18:24 But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Yes, we are saved and have salvation in JESUS, but if we are not living in the will of JESUS and committing sins (over and over again) that we know are wrong...JESUS is not the LORD of our lives. I say this b/c if JESUS truly were the center of someone's life...he/she would not be in bondage to satan, we would be strong through JESUS CHRIST and stomp on the face of the devil . The deeper our relationship with JESUS is, the easier it is to recognize and repent of our sins. Being Baptized or stating your a Christian or stating that "I accept JESUS as my SAVIOR" isn't a license to sin. The more we know, the more we are responsible for. We know right from wrong, and if "we" continue to do wrong without repenting we're not saved, "we" don't know JESUS so why would he know us.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to GOD. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to GOD and he will come near to you.
I recommend that you listen to a testimony from Mary Baxter, read her book : The Devine Revelation of Hell. You can also get it on tape. You will hear more about lost salvation, I also pray that learn scripture for yourself rather than relying on others. The word of JESUS is a sword, because if "we" let it...it will seperate/cut us from the world.
Dancing,
David
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2006 2:43:41 GMT -7
Hi David,
Did you join this forum just to respond to this thread? If so, it is a sad thing, and I would wonder how you happened across this site. If not, and you found this site in search of information and support for yourself, or someone you love, as the overwhelming majority of us have, it is sadder still that you believe as you do.
Praise God that we are under New Testament grace, not Old Testament Law. That is not to say that we cannot learn from the Old Testament, since we surely can, as "All Scripture is inspired...." Faith and grace are even found in the OT. How many times did your namesake stumble and seek God's forgiveness, likely knowing the sinfulness of the act prior to its commission, yet God called him a man after His own heart? Truly, only God can know our hearts and judge whether or not our acceptance of Christ's sacrifice is sincere. The parable of the sower makes it clear that hearing and even seeming to respond to the Gospel does not mean that roots have formed or fruit will grow. We are also told that "by their fruit ye shall know them," which can help us in discernment, but certainly not in judging. In the 6th and 7th chapters of Romans that I mentioned, the apostle Paul, whom Jesus went above and beyond to bring to Himself, says that he did the evil he did not want to do continually, while concurrently cautioning us not to abuse God's grace. Is Paul, then, by this admission, now residing in hell, which would consequently disqualify much of the NT? We are encouraged not to be satisfied with being babes, only suckling the milk of the Word, but it does not suggest that we will go to hell for not availing ourselves of the meat. I do not find anywhere in Scripture that God is capricious, but that he does not act apart from his divine attributes of both justice and mercy. Just as He is, would He not have spelled out exactly how many times we could commit the same sin and still retain salvation? Would He not have told us how quickly after committing a sin, or after how many sins, we must ask for forgiveness in order to receive it? Are you suggesting that it is actually possible to no longer sin after salvation? I hope not, because you would be calling God a liar, according to 1 John. Scripture, as far as I can find, does not rank a hierarchy of sin, some being more forgivable than others. I think that we as humans try to make some sins "worse" than others in order to pridefully pat ourselves on the back for not having committed them.
The only people to whom I believe I can say, "You are headed for hell," based on Scripture, not my own, fallible, human judgment, are those who definitively state that they do not believe that their only means of reaching God and heaven is through the forgiveness bought with the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. Could that, perhaps, be exactly what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is?
I submit that we can no more lose salvation through works than gain it thereby.
TruthSeeker
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Post by mike on Aug 28, 2006 3:55:19 GMT -7
David, I deleted your post because of the harsh tone and namecalling. We're all on the same team here; don't attack the others.
Please keep in mind that the main thrust of these forums are for support and encouragement, not for debate or shoving doctrine down each other's throat.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2021 22:37:24 GMT -7
I am wondering whether or not a Christian can loose his or her grace (salvation) in Christ's shed blood through repeated acts of rebellion (i.e., giving into sexual sin when he knows it is wrong). I know Christ said that we should forgive seventy times seven if necessary, and that His own capacity for mercy is far greater than our own. Yet there are times when I slip up that I feel disgusted asking once again for forgiveness and mercy, because I've done so a hundred times in the past. I have heard from some Christians that once obtained, salvation in Christ cannot be lost. There are others who reject this, and say that salvation can indeed be lost by a wayward follower of christ. Both use scripture to support their arguments. And leave me totally confused. I'm not well versed in scripture. What are some of your thoughts on unlimited salvation and election (God selecting who will be saved and who will not be saved)? I'd also like to hear your thoughts on my first question....will my repeated falls cause me to lose my salvation?
This is one of the deepest questions I have too. It God and the Word of God were so easy to figure out, we wouldn't be fighting over this....I mean divisions and stuff. For me, I gave up this matter and gave us meaning, I just come to the cross, broken, and weeping and desparate for Jesus to take me and change me and not let me go.
Then Monday comes.....the good feeling is gone and temptation comes in really strong and if we are not reading the Bible for real, daily seeking God and praying for real, our state (whatever that means) will be hurt and weaker and we will give Satan a foothold.
Now, the Pharisees and Saducess also had different understanding on the resurrection. Jesus said that the dead are raised and it proves only that....it doesn't prove one side is right and one is wrong. My focus is on God's truth, not on the way we try to understand it all.
There are pentacostal, baptists, non-denomination and we have very small differences I really believe, and if we make those 'small differences' soo sooo important to the point of hating or endlessly arguing with a brother....it is fruitless, and hurts, and Satan laughs and says "ahahaha, I got these christians fighting, oh look, now they are proud, haahha, they are like me. hahha" No, we are "not" like Satan, our flesh is but Romans 6 says to "consider the old man / life prior to Jesus ...dead' and we are born again Jesus says. The evidence of a new birth love for the brother. Remember in 1st Corinthians 13 ..."if we can speak in tonuges of angels and understand all mysteries yet have no love, we are nothing"
And so what if our brother is right or wrong on this point? I'm mean....
There is a lot of issues that are more important...
Also, Paul said "If eating meat causes my brother to sin, I will not eat meat"...so he considered the conscience of his brother as important and valid because his brother was doing it (a vegitarian life diet) in faith so that was right for him and it was also right for Paul to eat meat because Paul's conscience, after salvation, was not affected by it (it meaning the rightness or wrongness of eating meat)..
So in the matter of "once saved always saved" or "losing our salvation"....we should trust Jesus and that's it. Simple, God knows, and we don't.
You know I think of this....we can have Bible studies all day but if that is not producing in us the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then we are just getting a head knowledge without the real experiences (real really knowledge and knowing) and we might be danger of becoming a Pharisee (aka a hypocrite) which I think no one wants to be. ...I think we (both sides, no sides in Jesus really) are trying to learn and seek God right and we get stumped by difficult and really good questions. I know God knows we struggle with understanding all the complexity and there is a mystery to it too.
I have heard it explain also like this.... God calls us to Him, we are responsible to come to Him.... two sides of the same coin...which is it..it's both...how? I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2021 23:00:27 GMT -7
Hi David, Did you join this forum just to respond to this thread? If so, it is a sad thing, and I would wonder how you happened across this site. If not, and you found this site in search of information and support for yourself, or someone you love, as the overwhelming majority of us have, it is sadder still that you believe as you do. Praise God that we are under New Testament grace, not Old Testament Law. That is not to say that we cannot learn from the Old Testament, since we surely can, as "All Scripture is inspired...." Faith and grace are even found in the OT. How many times did your namesake stumble and seek God's forgiveness, likely knowing the sinfulness of the act prior to its commission, yet God called him a man after His own heart? Truly, only God can know our hearts and judge whether or not our acceptance of Christ's sacrifice is sincere. The parable of the sower makes it clear that hearing and even seeming to respond to the Gospel does not mean that roots have formed or fruit will grow. We are also told that "by their fruit ye shall know them," which can help us in discernment, but certainly not in judging. In the 6th and 7th chapters of Romans that I mentioned, the apostle Paul, whom Jesus went above and beyond to bring to Himself, says that he did the evil he did not want to do continually, while concurrently cautioning us not to abuse God's grace. Is Paul, then, by this admission, now residing in hell, which would consequently disqualify much of the NT? We are encouraged not to be satisfied with being babes, only suckling the milk of the Word, but it does not suggest that we will go to hell for not availing ourselves of the meat. I do not find anywhere in Scripture that God is capricious, but that he does not act apart from his divine attributes of both justice and mercy. Just as He is, would He not have spelled out exactly how many times we could commit the same sin and still retain salvation? Would He not have told us how quickly after committing a sin, or after how many sins, we must ask for forgiveness in order to receive it? Are you suggesting that it is actually possible to no longer sin after salvation? I hope not, because you would be calling God a liar, according to 1 John. Scripture, as far as I can find, does not rank a hierarchy of sin, some being more forgivable than others. I think that we as humans try to make some sins "worse" than others in order to pridefully pat ourselves on the back for not having committed them. The only people to whom I believe I can say, "You are headed for hell," based on Scripture, not my own, fallible, human judgment, are those who definitively state that they do not believe that their only means of reaching God and heaven is through the forgiveness bought with the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. Could that, perhaps, be exactly what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is? I submit that we can no more lose salvation through works than gain it thereby. TruthSeeker
This is a great response from a member aka TruthSeeker.
I have also struggled and has "once" thought as David, the original poster. In fact, I would only feel "saved" if I wasn't looking at porn or masturbating....and sort of putting my trust in my own righteouness, which I confess, I'm not righteous......But the other extreme point is....well, I can sin all day because God forgive me.....buzzer sound, wrong. Romans 6 clearly says 'shall I continue in sin? God forbid'
So we understand that once we believe in Jesus, we are not going to think "hey sin because God will just forgive you"....no. We think, as the scriptures want us to think, because that tells us the will of God.
Remember when Jesus forgave the adulteress, What did Jesus say "Go and sin no more".....meaning, Go and dont' keep doing what you are doing. Jesus didn't say "Go and now you will now live in sinless perfection until you die, and if you sin once or twice or get a habit your lost now"..I didn't read that in the Bible, yet we kind of attach meanings to scripture where the scripture didnt' clearly speak on.
Honestly, I'm going to say it honestly....
Why I am so bothered by this? about "can we lose our salvation?" or not....
Here is my reason....
My mind is so wicked, that it is trying to find a doctrine that says this.
"Be a Christian, but still practice sins, and you'll definately go to heaven"..........which in effect is trying to seduce me into turning God's grace into a license to sin.
The devil is cunning and twists scriptures all the time..
the devil will do it to us.
But....On the other side, when I last watched porn and masturbated....this is what went through my mind.
Oh no, I am not saved, I am "keeping sinning", I am "not repentant" and I did that for a long time, I still even doubt my salvation, perhaps it's because I'm waiting again to get years of no p and m to get a scene of pride and "feel like" ok, now I'm saved...but now I'm basing my salvation on feelings, and years of no p and m?..... ? < How is that biblical....I am supposed to be believing in Jesus Christ, and trusting that Jesus died on the cross for all of my sins, and in that, learning and knowing God, learning how to be a desciple, confessing and forsaking sin, and not "planning" for a sin, not "deep down thinking, I will sin tonight"....but one day, I will or I might sin again....I'm wretched, but I'm not saved by works...
I think the Holy Spirit will convict us of our sins, we will confess them and we will confess them to each other, and be humble.
If we look past our sexual sins, we probably have a lot of more character defects / sins and we need help in those areas too.... is my anger sin? yes, is my lack of faith sin? I think so. Is my quick-tempered-ness sin? Yes. so add those sins to my addiction of p and m and I see how bad I'm really am, that is not even the top of it, deep and deep is our heart and mind issues, and only God knows why exactly I'm doing what I do, still I'm responsible to go to God and get help and abide or else I'm like a branch that will burn (John 15).
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