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Post by Will on Jun 25, 2017 2:45:24 GMT -7
Hey ladies, here is an articulate description of the way us men understand sex. From the way this female researcher talks about it, it sounds like this was a surprise to her. Can I ask you, is this a surprise to you too? To guys this stuff is completely obvious: www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWYHAgPlSgI
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 7:26:03 GMT -7
Hey will... I watched the video.. its great stuff.. my thoughts are... Respect part... i knew about this i read a book years ago called his needs her needs and it asked the question would my husband rather be loved or respected? .. so i asked him and he said hands down respected! That really was an eye opener for me!
The emotional attachment to sex for me part... I find this kinda funny because unless im an odd woman .... most women feel exactly the same way. Being desired is just as important to us and it affects our lufe daily in every aspect if were not also. So i completely get it...
Visual part... This part i kinda understood but never really got just how strong it is for men.. To me its kinda disheartening because in todays world its almost impossible not to see overly sexual dressed women... EVERYWHERE! so now that i understand how it affects men.. it is a constant insecure place. Even though it has nothing to do with us its primal but if you have a man that has issue's controlling himself.. you have fear all the time! And then their is the issue of our men wanting us to be dressed very sexual also. I am well endowed in my top and bottom and i am a woman that tries to keep covered because i am married and i don't want to be looked at constantly and be putting what belongs to my husband on display for other men to see... however my H prefers me to wear things that are skin tight and very revealing in public.. and i never really realized how much he wanted to see me like that. I haven't dressed this way the majority of our marriage unless we were just at home by ourselves. But that wasent often because i have a son and i wasen't gonna parade around in skin tight clothing in front of my growing son. So.... this has caused an issue in our marriage because i wasen't willing to put it all on display.. its sad that instead of him respecting me for being a good woman and keeping my parts covered from strange men and my child.. he just decided i wasen't very attractive.. its sad very sad! We just went clothes shopping for me because we have a vaca comming up.. i asked my H to please come with me because he might see something i would never think of wearing and i will try it on.. He came.. everything he had me put on was very much out of my comfort zone and very revealing. He even said WOW .. YOU LOOK SO PRETTY! and you have to get this.. he ended up buying me LOTS of clothes and when we left he said... man! that was fun .. i really enjoyed myself! Which shocked me because i dont know many guys that think shopping for womens clothes is REALLY FUN! But i coyld sense him seeing me that way excited him. SO NOW... in hopes to help my husband feel attracted to me.. I'm gonna wear these clothes in public and while im happy to make my husband happy i feel worry because i dont want to be another woman with all of her stuff out on display causeing unneeded temptation for guys who really struggle.. its not fair to them or their wives! But as a wife.. and someone who wants to be wanted by her husband.. i dont know what else to do...
SO.... men NEED Visual stimulation... i get its importance now!
Thanks will for the info...but definitely makes me think??
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 10:43:23 GMT -7
Esh I identify more with the men. And my ex never wanted sex. He said I wanted it too often and put restrictions on when we could be intimate. I am in a minority it seems.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 21:09:05 GMT -7
Me to Amy... i think i think more like men in somethings to!
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Post by Will on Jun 26, 2017 3:21:53 GMT -7
Hey thanks guys that is interesting. So maybe its not such a bombshell. This author has two companion books, 'For Women Only' that is the one for women about men and 'For Men Only' for men about women - that's the part 2 video. Have to admit there were a lot of surprises in there for me!
Amy hmmm it sounds like he had some problems with intimacy, etc
GHP yeah I sympathise that is really a difficult line to walk. Also I understand why this info can seem a bit depressing. I actually think there is more hope than the video maybe suggests though. Sure we do live in an environment where there is a lot of over-sexualised imagery, but at the end of the day, it is totally possible as a guy to avoid looking at it.
I've gone back and forth on this. There's no doubt that it can be a trigger. But for me overwhelmingly more often triggers come from something I see on a screen that I am watching at the time. If I think of the totality of the view I see around me every day as I walk or drive around, its actually an extremely small, miniscule even, percentage of that that might be an immodestly dressed women. And if such a woman comes into my peripheral vision, I can turn away (and I have to!) quite easily, before I even see her properly.
I've gone back and forth on the dress thing. While I'm pretty fundamentalist and do admire the Amish for the way they have renounced worldliness, on the other hand I have kind of come down on the side of more easy-going, with the above considerations of the options men have in reality to look away. But it is a blessed mercy from God for us when Godly women cover up and 'dress to accentuate their face not their body', for sure.
Once I visited a Bible Study of a friend who was a little younger than me, and there were a bunch of young women there in their twenties. I was fine and successfully looked away and kept discipline over my eyes when I was at the Study and that night. But within a couple of days I had stumbled badly as a direct result of the fact that the women had been wearing like cutoff jean shorts and loose t-shirts etc and all sitting around casually in the lounge for the study. It sucks because it was a good Bible Study, but there is no way I would feel comfortable ever going back, because that was just a massive trigger for me. Also was not able actually to bring that up with my (male) friend either, like 'um liked the Bible Study but the women in your group are too immodestly dressed!!!' It is kind of hard thing to say without coming across like John Knox! And also of course what right do I have anyway to question the way they study together? But there's definitely an issue for guys particularly with (to be honest) women's legs. I used to think this was dumb like the Amish or 19 Kids and Counting where the women NEVER where pants, only always skirts/dresses. But I have to admit there is a lot to it. As soon as women are in pants not skirts it becomes way more revealing and difficult for us guys to avoid being drawn in to noticing them in the wrong way.
So there's that but of course I don't have to go back to that study, I can and did choose to stay away. I also feel its kind of unfair to women in that, for example I go surfing. Well basically the dress for that is wetsuits or less. So are we saying women are not allowed to surf? There is less revealing options of course (like normal shorts not spandex or figure-hugging swimsuits) but basically an Amish chick can not go surfing!
So I don't know. I think its a Holy Spirit-guided balance. For Christian women it is so wonderful for us when they dress modestly and remove that whole problem for us. However on the other hand ultimately it is our (male) issue to deal with, and it is perfectly possible for us to control ourselves enough and be vigilant about where our eyes go to head off potential problems and that is what we have to do. What it comes down to for me is that when I am really walking with the Lord in His spirit, this is not a problem, I am able to walk through a packed beach with women lying sunbathing in bikinis and not look but only look straight ahead to the waves. It is only when I am weak in myself and struggling spiritually anyway that that stuff becomes a problem (or when it is literally directly thrown in your face, but how often does that happen? Virtually never IRL - screens however a different matter!)
GHP I can understand why your husband wants to be enjoying the way you look when you are out but he is not being very fair to his brothers!
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Post by Will on Jun 26, 2017 3:50:05 GMT -7
Amy I'm guessing your ex's porn addiction was the cause of that syndrome in him.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 5:23:53 GMT -7
About dressing appropriate. It is my belief that women should be able to dress exactly as they want to. I have yet to see a woman with a sign saying "give me unwanted sexual attention" What we do in our minds and with our eyes is our issue. Not theirs. Saying that they need to dress in a certain way to not tempt men is just such an easy way to shift blame away from ourselves and not take responsibility. She dressed provactiv that's the reason I looked at her. I'm sorry did she go up to you and put a gun to your head and tell you to look at her. No you looked at her because you objectifying women and let lust guide your eyes. And just as bad is the judgemental attitude from other women. Look at her she only dresses that way because she wants attention. That may be true but then pray for her, talk to her and pray with her. I'm so tired of especially churchfolk that are to busy shifting focus rather than follow the Bible. Did Jesus blame the adulterer or lust for her because she only wore a sheet. No her helped her, loved her for being a creature of God, and guided her. That's what we need to do. If we only saw women as beautiful spiritual beings they could be standing naked in front of us without us objectifying them.
Sorry for the rant but somethings just need to be ranted about.
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Post by ladystrong on Jun 26, 2017 19:46:04 GMT -7
About dressing appropriate. It is my belief that women should be able to dress exactly as they want to. I have yet to see a woman with a sign saying "give me unwanted sexual attention" What we do in our minds and with our eyes is our issue. Not theirs. Saying that they need to dress in a certain way to not tempt men is just such an easy way to shift blame away from ourselves and not take responsibility. She dressed provactiv that's the reason I looked at her. I'm sorry did she go up to you and put a gun to your head and tell you to look at her. No you looked at her because you objectifying women and let lust guide your eyes. And just as bad is the judgemental attitude from other women. Look at her she only dresses that way because she wants attention. That may be true but then pray for her, talk to her and pray with her. I'm so tired of especially churchfolk that are to busy shifting focus rather than follow the Bible. Did Jesus blame the adulterer or lust for her because she only wore a sheet. No her helped her, loved her for being a creature of God, and guided her. That's what we need to do. If we only saw women as beautiful spiritual beings they could be standing naked in front of us without us objectifying them. Sorry for the rant but somethings just need to be ranted about. I'd like to weigh in here, since I have tried the "wear something alluring to attract my husband's attention" side. So for about 10 years I wore a one piece suit because I just never felt comfortable in my heart that baring it all was ok. I was secure in this since being married because I felt like my husband would never want anyone else. But then, he had a shift in his behavior and I felt like I desperately needed to change to get his attention. I started wearing bikinis, testing him to see what he would say. Really, I just wanted attention from someone to validate that I was desirable. From my point of view, most women do this for that very reason- to gain validation from someone, anyone. I was torn because I knew it was causing men at the gym to look at me, but all I really wanted was my husband to look at me deep down in my heart. There aren't any easy answers to women dressing a certain way or men keeping their eyes from wandering and hearts from lusting. Both need to take responsibility for their actions. The question I try to always ask myself is, "By wearing this, am I drawing people to see Jesus' light in me or am I drawing people to just see me?" That's the heart question I have to face. I've noticed that people who truly know that this life and this body is not their own dress in a way that puts Jesus on display, not themselves. As much as I'd like to please my husband, pleasing Jesus is way more important. I can dress alluringly while we're in the bedroom for my husband's eyes only. But then again, most of the time he doesn't really want all that extra stuff anyway, he just wants me. I can also say this- not many people want to hear the truth and us truth tellers often get the "she's so judgemental" junk thrown at us. I am learning to be kinder when I say things to people and to be available to them for the long haul if they're willing to go the distance with me too. And once again, many are not willing to take that step into a deeper relationship where each can point out the other's faults.
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Post by teetop on Jun 30, 2017 20:15:38 GMT -7
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Post by Will on Jul 1, 2017 4:20:10 GMT -7
Hey Gloggen, I agree for our purposes as recovering porn addicts, there's no way its okay for us to take the way other people act as in any way to blame for our failures. It is our fault and how women dress is not to blame. However, I do think that there is something to be said about not causing others to stumble. Actually, I think this thread has helped me out. Think it is the intent of the person in wearing what they are wearing that makes the difference. Like Ladystrong said, does the clothing draw attention to Jesus or to something wholesome, rather than being intended for unwholesome purposes. For instance, here in Australia people are fitness crazy. If you go to any park or waterfront there will be joggers running by you, and women here do love to wear skin tight fitness gear. This is actually what was in my mind when bringing up the subject. BUT, most of the time, it is not a problem for me, and I was wondering why and how this fits in to the legalism of e.g. the Amish who would say that was wrong. I think the reason is that the women in Australia (God bless them) not all but most, are genuinely not interested in attracting male attention at that point. They are jogging and thinking about other things. And that is not the motivation for them wearing that. That's why, despite what they are wearing, its kind of innocent and okay. A woman could wear exactly the same thing, but if she was intending it in order to be provocative to men, that would make all the difference. I think its the responsibility of both sexes to be aware of this stuff and listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit about it. Gloggen I basically agree with you from our perspective as men. But does that mean then that there is nothing to be said about the young women in that Bible Study group? That's completely fine and its totally my problem only. I just need to not associate with them any more at all, not go back to the Bible Study group and not mention this to anyone. Would those women not want to know that? Or do you think they wouldn't and it is nothing to do with them anyway. Genuinely interested
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2017 6:16:33 GMT -7
Of course there is something to be said about the woman at Bible study but what's important as you point out is why do they dress like they do. If it's just because it's nice and comfortable, or are they seeking attention, or are they just not thinking about it and are following fashion. Just like with the joggers. If they are dressing to attract attention then there may be a deeper issue that maybe we as men are not the right ones to bring up. But talk to your friends and bring it up gently see what they say. Test the waters. There is sadly a social norm that dictates that woman dress and looks in a certain way to attract men, and it's sadly a norm men have created by not seeking God.
I look at my wife and to me she is as beautiful in the morning with no makeup and bedhair as she is when she is dressed for a date night. I'm not going to say I don't like it when she does something extra but that goes both ways. She likes it better when I'm not in wearing worn out sneakers and look like a bum. That is something we do for each other to show that we care, that we want to look our best for that special person. It's not for the man or woman at the next table. And that is the point I'm trying to get across. What is important is the underlying meaning. If someone is staring at my wife because she dressed up for me then it's his problem not hers.
If the girls at the Bible study dress like they do because it's a million degrees and a top and shorts are just more comfortable then it should be fine. You never see a man in a t-shirt and shorts being told he shows to much leg. At the beach you see guys in Speedos but the woman in a bikini is attracting attention. He is dressed in less than her so why not ask him to cover up. I don't know if I even make any sense or answered your question.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2017 13:39:19 GMT -7
This video just made me very sad. I have a couple of thoughts
1. It sounds like men live a tortured life, always having to take thoughs captive ( I would lose it).
2. I'd this will always he an issue for men/my husband why even marry? What is the point when his eyes will never be for me and me alone (due to biological engineering)
3. If physical attractiveness is so important what happens to a marriage as a woman ages and or has children? Is there no hope for plus size wives or women who are less attractive in other ways?
4. Is sex the only way he can feel deep love? What if there is a medical problem? Then he just won't ever feel loved?
5. If physical attraction is so important doesn't that once again reduce women to objects?
6. She makes it sound like women should just give their husband sex and pretend you enjoy it because if you don't he won't feel loved. Try to be as sexy as possible and always show respect. It sounds to me like women are reduced to tools or objects just to please a man that will never be pleased because of biology.All while the wife is dying inside because he can't stop noticing other women and her needs are not ever being met. Why? Due to biology he can't meet her deepest need of being the only one he will ever look at or desire.
I apologize if this sounds angry but it all sounds so hopeless to me. Makes me feel like why even try. As a plus size woamn , I will never really be physically attractive. If I do drop pounds that takes time. So I just learn to be content knowing I'm not physically attractive to my spouse and he has a gut hunger that cause him to notice other women? Its discourageing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2017 15:37:52 GMT -7
1: it is not a tortured life it is just reality. We deal with it as best we can. And we make strategies to avoid it as much as we can.
2: his eyes may see images but as she says most men destroy those images and it does not affect our feelings for our wife.
3:I didn't hear it as physical attractiveness was so important. I heard it as men have a need to feel desired from their wife. That has nothing to do with age.
4: No sex is not what this is about. At least not in my understanding. What she says men need is to feel respected, desired and wanted. They want to feel like the most important person in the world. And woman show that by saying I love you. But we men are thick and a little dumb so we don't get it.
5: Physical attraction is the hardwired response but again that does not change the feelings men have for their wife. So no I don't see it as an objectification of women in general. Us PA's are bad at objectifying women and over sexualizing our thoughts (or at least I am/was) and that causes a problem where our wife's feel less desirable.
6: I didn't totally get that part either about sex and the office. I think the rejection for me is more about not being able to process feelings.
No need to apologise. I don't think that what matters is physical attraction but spritual attraction. I know that what I longed for was a deep connection with my wife, and that I was to afraid to go after it. So I replaced it with porn to fill the void. The images will always be there but personally I'm moving every image away and my wife into my thoughts instead. I'm still learning.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2017 15:50:14 GMT -7
1: it is not a tortured life it is just reality. We deal with it as best we can. And we make strategies to avoid it as much as we can. 2: his eyes may see images but as she says most men destroy those images and it does not affect our feelings for our wife. 3:I didn't hear it as physical attractiveness was so important. I heard it as men have a need to feel desired from their wife. That has nothing to do with age. 4: No sex is not what this is about. At least not in my understanding. What she says men need is to feel respected, desired and wanted. They want to feel like the most important person in the world. And woman show that by saying I love you. But we men are thick and a little dumb so we don't get it. 5: Physical attraction is the hardwired response but again that does not change the feelings men have for their wife. So no I don't see it as an objectification of women in general. Us PA's are bad at objectifying women and over sexualizing our thoughts (or at least I am/was) and that causes a problem where our wife's feel less desirable. 6: I didn't totally get that part either about sex and the office. I think the rejection for me is more about not being able to process feelings. No need to apologise. I don't think that what matters is physical attraction but spritual attraction. I know that what I longed for was a deep connection with my wife, and that I was to afraid to go after it. So I replaced it with porn to fill the void. The images will always be there but personally I'm moving every image away and my wife into my thoughts instead. I'm still learning. Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the male perspective, it really helps. I'm so glad to here that you are seeking your wife. It is encouraging to other wives.
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Post by KevinesKay on Jul 5, 2017 10:04:55 GMT -7
Thanks for sharing the videos, Will. I've only watched the first one so far, but am amazed that a woman can show such insight about men.
And there are internal differences between us that make relationships challenging. When I discovered this, it shocked me that women weren't wired the same way I am. Started asking myself questions such as:
Why don't women like porn?
How can they go for so long without sex?
What do they find desirable in a man?
Why do they like babies so much?
What is it between women and romance?
It is true that maintaining custody of my eyes and mind is a constant war that I partake in every day. And that it surprised me that many women don't have the same challenge. Women have other challenges that they deal with.
Jaynar, you raised a point. Men are often overly gravitated towards the physical realm. It is nice when a man chooses to come out of that to embrace the emotional realm, but it can be outside of his comfort zone.
Another point is that my wife does not have to be a Barbie doll in order for me to find her attractive. I can often find beauty in the average person. She doesn't have to fit a certain standard. Men that require a certain standard of beauty in their women have been negatively influenced by pornography and the culture around us.
And my experiences shows me that it literally has to take a miracle of God for a husband and wife to stay together.
Here's a sample of one of my affirmations that I came up with to help me come to terms with these differences between men and women..
In understanding the miraculous and marvelous difference that men tend to be charged more by physical sensations whereas women tend to be charged more by emotional experiences, I am aware that God desires a man to unconditionally love his woman without expecting s*x, love, or good feelings in return. Likewise, God also desires a woman to unconditionally love her man without expecting s*x, love, or good feelings in return. Thus, God ultimately is using marriage and relationships with family, children, and others to challenge us to love unconditionally as He unconditionally loves us. Furthermore, I take it to a higher challenge to choose to love God unconditionally. Which means I surrender to God my privilege to see, my privilege to hear, taste, smell, and touch. I surrender to God my privilege to feel good feelings, my privilege to eat, my privilege to have s*x, my privilege to feel love, and my privilege to live. Thus, I choose to love God more than sight. I choose to love God more than hearing, smell, taste, and touch. I love God more than good feelings. I love God more than food. I love God more than s*x.
I love God more than love.
I love God more than life.
I love God more than salvation.
I love God not for what He does for me or how he makes me feel, but for who He is.
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